A hand that bugs me

[phish]

Think this is my first hand post. I can usually think thru a hand myself, but this one bugs me to no end:

3 handed Stars 1/2 game. Villain is Piejay.

button folds. Piejay calls sb. I check with J6.

flop is 764 w/ one diamond.

he checks, I bet, he raises, I reraise, he caps.

turn is 5 of diamonds.

he bets, i raise, he calls.

river is Q of diamonds.

he bets, i fold.

I think the flop bet and reraise and call the cap is pretty standard. No big deal.

On the turn, I raise just in case he was overplaying a straight draw on the flop and has now hit his 5. Want to punish him. Didn't really like it because of the Stars 1/2 semi-regulars, Piejay is actually one of the less tricky ones.

His bet on the river bugs me. Would he bet a five here as a desperation bluff? I though it was more likely that he had a straight and didn't want to scare me off with a three bet on the turn. Or had the idiot end of the straight and thought he could bet the river since the diamond was a scare card that would prevent me from raising even if I had the 8. Or he made a flush.

I folded but the whole hand has really bugged me. (Maybe I should've called just to see how badly I butchered this hand and at least KNOW one way or the other.)

Comments, anyone?

[DcifrThs]

i think on the turn id just call him down. at least from what i remember of his play he may be one of the less tricky ones but he's definately still tricky. this one is tricky b/c of the river card though.

really, the only hand you beat here is Ax5x. or 96 no diamond...

in fact the turn raise is good for that reason, id want to call him down as stated above but i think your line of raising the turn and folding the river wins the most. he will rarely fold a better hand but its worth a consideration to raise the river. if he calls you've just earned your self some extra late street action for a few rounds. just be aware of your future river spots vs. piejay after you fold this.

Barron

[phish]

Dcfrths,

Thanks for the comments. Though from your comments, I get the feeling you thought there were 4 diamonds on the river rather than 3. There were only three, does this change your thoughts at all.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Dcfrths,

Thanks for the comments. Though from your comments, I get the feeling you thought there were 4 diamonds on the river rather than 3. There were only three, does this change your thoughts at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh [censored].

call.

EDIT: and here's why imo: you could be semi bluffing a draw, and so could he. sure you feel foolish paying off a big hand or two pair, but he could just as easily have the draw to the diamonds with the 5 and the 4 is a great card for him to bet. but i dont think he has the straight. id call piejay's river bet here. definately makes the hand tougher though b/c its a lot closer.

Barron

[phish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dcfrths,

Thanks for the comments. Though from your comments, I get the feeling you thought there were 4 diamonds on the river rather than 3. There were only three, does this change your thoughts at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh [censored].

call.

EDIT: and here's why imo: you could be semi bluffing a draw, and so could he. sure you feel foolish paying off a big hand or two pair, but he could just as easily have the draw to the diamonds with the 5 and the 4 is a great card for him to bet. but i dont think he has the straight. id call piejay's river bet here. definately makes the hand tougher though b/c its a lot closer.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh,... the river card was the third diamond. queen of diamonds. The turn card put the four liner out there, not the river card.

If the turn card was the third diamond and the river put the four liner (sounds like what you're thinking), then I hear what you're saying.

New thoughts?

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dcfrths,

Thanks for the comments. Though from your comments, I get the feeling you thought there were 4 diamonds on the river rather than 3. There were only three, does this change your thoughts at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh [censored].

call.

EDIT: and here's why imo: you could be semi bluffing a draw, and so could he. sure you feel foolish paying off a big hand or two pair, but he could just as easily have the draw to the diamonds with the 5 and the 4 is a great card for him to bet. but i dont think he has the straight. id call piejay's river bet here. definately makes the hand tougher though b/c its a lot closer.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh,... the river card was the third diamond. queen of diamonds. The turn card put the four liner out there, not the river card.

If the turn card was the third diamond and the river put the four liner (sounds like what you're thinking), then I hear what you're saying.

New thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

i give up. thats my new thought lol. for some reason i just couldn't read this hand for [censored].

so the TURN comes the 5 for 7654 and piejay bets out. there ARE two diamonds there correct?

i think raising this turn isn't the best play b/c he knows an 8 wouldn't raise immediately a good portion of the time. neither would a hand like 73. so you're raise tends to show more weakness than strength. at this point id just call him down. id expect to lose a majority of the time, but plenty enough to still call the 2 bets.

Barron

[phish]

[ QUOTE ]


so the TURN comes the 5 for 7654 and piejay bets out. there ARE two diamonds there correct?


[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. And he bets out after capping the flop.

Question is: could he have capped the flop with a hand like 95. Called the turn raise trying to hit an 8. And figured since he's going to call the river anyways, he might as well bet it. His image of me is not as a river folder (at least I don't think so).

Not sure why, of all the hands I play, this one bugs me so much. Maybe because something about it doesn't feel right and I think I may have made a $2000 mistake.

Should've avoided getting fancy and simply called down.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Should've avoided getting fancy and simply called down.


[/ QUOTE ]

this is how i end up playing a lot of hands suboptimally vs. tough opposition, but i think the small degree of suboptimality is worth the security it brings.

Barron

[ggbman]

Ok, i am going to risk sounding like a total noob here. How standard is the flop 3 bet. My initial incling was to call the flop and raise any turn, which is going to bet 100% of the time here.

For your line to be effective, you assume he either is drawing and want to charge him, or has a worse made hand and will pay off despite tons of action. The problem is, when he has a strong hand, you expose yourself to putting in a lot of bets with a medium strength hand and no redraw. By calling the flop, you can raise the turn for a free showdown, or value bet the river if his play feels like a worse made hand as opposed to a busted draw. I could be being results oriented here, but this way you control the # of bets going into the pot and never put in all that $$$ only to not showdown the hand. Just a thought.

Gabe

[phish]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, i am going to risk sounding like a total noob here. How standard is the flop 3 bet. My initial incling was to call the flop and raise any turn, which is going to bet 100% of the time here.

For your line to be effective, you assume he either is drawing and want to charge him, or has a worse made hand and will pay off despite tons of action. The problem is, when he has a strong hand, you expose yourself to putting in a lot of bets with a medium strength hand and no redraw. By calling the flop, you can raise the turn for a free showdown, or value bet the river if his play feels like a worse made hand as opposed to a busted draw. I could be being results oriented here, but this way you control the # of bets going into the pot and never put in all that $$$ only to not showdown the hand. Just a thought.

Gabe

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I really butchered this hand. I three-bet because I felt that J6 was the better hand more than half the time. Didn't really like it when he four-bet.

Raised the turn with a sick heart (and praying that he just has a 5). Would've folded to a reraise.

When he bet the river, I was convinced there little hope (would've never folded against a BabyHan or some of the trickier players) and folded.

Badly played throughout.