The Evils of Open-Limping

[Songwind]

I'm wondering what's wrong in many posters' eyes with open-limping? I can certainly understand not open limping in certain situations, like an aggressive table, but many posters here seem to be completely opposed to the very idea.

If you're playing a passive table (I frequently sit down at tables where if I don't raise, there will be no raise) and have a hand that'd be fine to play out of position if it hits, but you want to be able to throw it away cheap if you miss completely... why not limp from EP? A8s, for example. If you hit trips, two pair, or a flush draw, full speed ahead. Otherwise, check/fold and don't worry about it.

[Eeegah]

Table size is the most important factor here. If it's a full ring game, there's a number of hands we can open-limp--77 and 88 come to minds, and 22-66 if the table is passive enough. Low suited T or better such as JTs, QTs and KTs are also fine in my book (KJs is a raise for me).

As the table shrinks it's roughly equivalent to the first few seats folding in a full ring game. You probably are aware that you shouldn't open limp if it's folded to you in MP2 or so, which is equivalent to a 6-max game.

Edit: I'll be honest, I tend to fidget if it's folded to me in MP2 or whatever and I'm holding, say, A4s. I tend to muck then, but I feel odd as it's equivalent to having a lower vpip than in a full ring game. Or something, I need to work on it more :/

[jaxUp]

Open-limping multiway hands from EP is fine. Limping from MP or LP after a few callers is fine if your cards are not strong enough to come in for a raise. However, open-limping from M-LP is almost always a mistake. This is because the types of hands that you would tend to limp will be strong multiway hands. Once it is folded to M-LP, it is no longer going to be multiway. Hence you should try and raise for value and to put yourself in a better position to win postflop (as long as the hand has SH value) or fold if it has only multiway value.

[Vote4Pedro]

Excellent analysis, broseph!

[car ramrod]

It is a lot worse in 6max. If I see someone open limp in 6max I generally think they are weak and like to raise to isolate them.

Full table, it is not so bad, or even a 6 table that is really passive, with every one just limping in.

If you open limp in middle/late position that also looks very weak, you should be coming in for a raise, or not playing at all.

Just depends who is at your table, most good tags will try to isolate open limpers.

I don't see why open limping is any worse in 6max than it is in the equivalent position in full-ring. 6max is full-ring minus the opening 3 or 4 positions, so it's just as if the first 3/4 have folded to you. If you wouldn't open-limp in 6max, then you ought not to open limp from MP in full-ring.

Open limping from earlier positions in full isn't bad at all, though is dependent on the table (high VPIP, low PFR). There's no point in open limping with 33 from MP1 if there are people on your left smart enough to isolate you.

I've got to say that I do like this topic. I rarely open-limp, and never do it in 6max, but can admit that I don't quite know why. Are there situations in 6max where open-limping is ok? If the table is high VPIP, low PFR, then limping with mid-connectors or low pairs isn't much bad, is it?

At many tables, my bread and butter is isolating weak players who have cards that (they think) are worth a limp, but not a raise. Maybe my disdain for open-limping comes from wanting to be the isolator and not the isolated.

[Xhad]

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I don't see why open limping is any worse in 6max than it is in the equivalent position in full-ring.

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It's not. It's just that making a mistake in 6max is often worse than making the exact same mistake in fullring because you can't make up the difference with solid play in other situations. Fullring has shorthanded and multiway pots, 6-max is ALWAYS shorthanded so any shorthanded leak is going to be magnified there due to frequency.

[DCWildcat]

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I don't see why open limping is any worse in 6max than it is in the equivalent position in full-ring.

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It isn't, it's pretty much the same. That doesn't change the fact that it sucks, though.

Here's the oversimplified version: you have hands you want multiway, and you have hands you don't want multiway. There's no point in open limping in MP2 or later with a multiway hand because you're probably not going to get multiway action. If it's a hand you don't want multiway, well then raising is pretty obvious.

[DCWildcat]

And the non-oversimplified version: When it gets to late position and everyone has folded so far, hands are less likely to be multiway. That's common sense. Thus, hands that derive their value from their good implied odds--low suited connectors like 65s, crappy suited aces perhaps, etc.--won't get the implied odds they need to be profitable. Thus, limping with them is bad.

On the other hand, with less players, others hands gain value. Hands like A9o, KTo, etc., suddenly become +EV raising propositions. However, unlike the highest of those hands (AK, etc.), these hands tend to lose value with additional players. With the premium high card hands, the money that additional players put into the pot generally outweighs the fact that your winning chances drop a little. Weak high card hands tend to lose more from the extra players than they gain by the extra money in the pot.
So you should raise to limit the players.

There are other reasons--buying the button from MP2 or CO, gaining the initiative, etc.--but those aren't as important as what I outlined above. Remember that it's usually still ok to limp from early or early middle position, because the conditions I wrote about above don't apply.

[car ramrod]

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It's not. It's just that making a mistake in 6max is often worse than making the exact same mistake in fullring because you can't make up the difference with solid play in other situations. Fullring has shorthanded and multiway pots, 6-max is ALWAYS shorthanded so any shorthanded leak is going to be magnified there due to frequency.


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I agree with what Xhad says. But also, 6max is more aggressive, so you will be punished more for openlimping than you would in full ring.

It really boils down to the table you are playing at, but as you get later in position it becomes worse to open limp.