KK

[Trix]

I dont hate it, the Queens aren´t worth much here and the Kings prolly less.
Only hand where MP doesn´t have 2pair or better is AJ and I dont think he has it that often as he took a passive line preflop and an aggro line on the flop.
UTG probably either has AK/AQ or maybe a scared big pair.

[Danenania]

This hand deserves more discussion than it's getting.

[spydog]

I think you need to 3-bet this flop and force Button and BB to coldcall 3 bets. I know that you are waiting for a favorable turn card to protect your hand and get max value from draws, but you can't be certain that this isn't getting 3-bet by the Button, BB, or UTG. If any of those 3-bet you then you will be sitting with your thumb up your butt wondering how to play the turn. With this kind of action on the flop you can't be certain that the turn will be led by MP, so you may miss out on protecting your hand with a turn raise and might as well face some others with 3 cold while you can.

[xCEO]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, tough one. The flop call is good, but I don't think the turn can be a fold. MP coldcalled PF, then raised the flop. It's not very likely that he would have a straight on the turn. In fact I think you are ahead of his AT/KT/AJ/KJ hands pretty often, and when you aren't ahead you're usually drawing to 6 outs. The players behind you are worrisome too but given that none of them bet out, I think it's a mistake to give them too much credit for real hands.

So the pot is huge. You have a hand that warrants a showdown (imo). And a million cards can burn you. I think the play is to raise and pray.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you should include more possible hands. Like 77,88,JT and QJ.

Button and BB coldcall the flopraise, flushdraw/straightdraw?

So what cards can help you on the river?

[sthief09]

I wonder how good/bad raising the turn would be. UTG often has AA and I think he can let go of it unless he's a huge moron. also having raised the flop MP might have a hand like JT against which you have 12 outs. most people wouldn't fastplay QJ so QT is the only hand that really makes sense. I think you're giving up too much by folding, and in a pot that huge, raising is easily worth it. if you can, take a free showdown. if you get 3-bet then oh well, call and fold the river

[xCEO]

what about QJ with no clubs?

[geormiet]

I'm 3 betting the flop, but i can see your reasoning.

The gutshot on the turn needs to be severely discounted because of the fact that someone has AK a not-insignificant portion of the time.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
what about QJ with no clubs?

[/ QUOTE ]


people don't ordinarily fastplay flopped straights

[Ben5505]

Your right...which is why he should fold the turn due to the two cold calls behind him. This board is way too cordinated no matter what the size of this pot is. The two cold calls behind his cold call is just too scary. They either have the straight already or are drawing to a higher straight or flush. Like I said eariler...even if you hit your gut, it could potentially cost you more than not hitting it. And in the end all you have is one pair with a nasty lookin board and a damn near family pot. He should have 3bet the flop. I dont see any prob at all with the turn fold, actually I recomend it.

[deepsquat]

I think MP's most likely holding is a set here, maybe 88.
This wouldnt be a flop to slowplay a set on due to the potsize and no-one fastplays A straight here.

Im really struggling to see what we are ahead of here on the turn. A read on UTG would be most helpful as i really cant see what he caps pf that we are ahead of.

JJ,QQ,AA all have us in trouble, KQs and AQs also.

AK is prob the only hand we would want to fold with a raise but we are still going to be behind MP and possibly button and BB a huge amounth of the time.

I think folding is ok with 3 others behind us and prob only a couple of outs at best. The Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is prob tainted too