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  #1  
Old 12-05-2005, 04:18 PM
Landon_McFly Landon_McFly is offline
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Default OT: Heads up starting hands

Ok, I've been on a huge downswing lately in my HU SNG's, and I was analyzing my hands in pokertracker, and noticed some interesting info.

I make the most money on pocket pairs, and suited cards.
I know the sklansky NL hand chart, but doesn't that only apply to after all the cards have been dealt?

If I have a monster in the BB I usually just call, but if I have a monster in the SB I usually raise.

I noticed that hands such as 97s, Q8o, 63s, T4s, 96s, and 76o that I usually consider trash (but I raise with them anyways out of the SB) are winning far more than their fair share.

For instance, I've lost more money with pocket 2's than I've won. I'm sure the reason is that when I raise with them unless I hit a 2 or a A or K scare card comes I'll fold them to almost any bet.

Hands like 64s, 93s, 85s on the other hand, are winning me a great deal of chips. I think the reason is simply that my opponent can't put me on a hand when I hit my two pair or gut-shot straight, and if I cheaply flop the flush draw from the button I'll play it very aggressively.

I'm wondering if this rational thinking at all, or am I being completely illogical in my reasoning and missing something?

[ QUOTE ]
overall #s give you "clues"


[/ QUOTE ]

Someone posted that about how PT can help your SNG game, and that's what gave me the idea to deep into my data.

Note: I looked at the data not by which hands have won me the most chips overall, but as average chips won per time the hand was dealt.

One more thing to keep in mind: I'm obviously not dumb enough to call with one if these hands when someone pushes just because they usually win me a bunch of money. I've just noticed they give me a strategic advantage as far as postflop play goes.

Your thoughts appreciated,
Lando
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  #2  
Old 12-05-2005, 05:23 PM
The Yugoslavian The Yugoslavian is offline
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Default Re: OT: Heads up starting hands

Lando,

One more time: IT'S NOT ABOUT YOUR CARDS IT'S ABOUT YOUR OPPONENT.

Not only does this really apply to all poker....it especially does to these deep stacks HU STTs where there really aren't objectively 'correct' plays based on pure math. You need to know your opponent and it will affect the math way more than in a 10H STT or MTT or whatever.

As for starting hands vs. 'normal' lowish buyin HU STT players....you can play a huge range and raise a lot b/c you're always up vs. a random hand...it's not like a ring game where you're up against 9 hands when someone or other likely has a premium hand. You can almost play HU without looking at your cards until you face a big bet/raise and know that you need to have 'it'....in fact, I think I'm going to try just that.

Yugoslav
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  #3  
Old 12-05-2005, 05:26 PM
durron597 durron597 is offline
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Default Re: OT: Heads up starting hands

The current trust level of your SnG match is more important than your cards.
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  #4  
Old 12-05-2005, 06:04 PM
PrayingMantis PrayingMantis is offline
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Default Re: OT: Heads up starting hands

[ QUOTE ]
or a A or K scare card comes I'll fold them to almost any bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just something to think about: if you play HU and consistently consider A or K to be scare cards, you are playing way too scared. This could certainly be a big leak in your game, and a possible reason for this "huge downswing" you are talking about.
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  #5  
Old 12-05-2005, 06:16 PM
applejuicekid applejuicekid is offline
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Default Re: OT: Heads up starting hands

[ QUOTE ]
One more time: IT'S NOT ABOUT YOUR CARDS IT'S ABOUT YOUR OPPONENT.

[/ QUOTE ]

While this is said often and many times exaggerated, I think this is interesting in this discussion. For example, what kind of opponent makes Q7 (or any other medicore hand) a profitable hand? The thing is I am not sure there will be a big difference from opponent to opponent in the low buy ins. In a 10 handed sng there are probably several situations where the standard line is incorrect against your opponent but it works well enough to make money overall. Obviously, the difference will be greater in HU sngs since you are playing only one opponent instead of a group.

[ QUOTE ]
it especially does to these deep stacks HU STTs where there really aren't objectively 'correct' plays based on pure math. You need to know your opponent and it will affect the math way more than in a 10H STT or MTT or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand this. How will it affect the math more? Are you saying more accurate hand ranges are needed? Or is it because the hand ranges will be wider HU than at a full table?
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  #6  
Old 12-05-2005, 08:32 PM
The Yugoslavian The Yugoslavian is offline
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Default Re: OT: Heads up starting hands

applejuicekid,

When I say the read affects the math 'more' what I really mean is that in a full table STT using SNA and such you can come up with many situations where there are non-exploitable ways to play situations - no matter what your opponent does. In HU this isn't really the case. Obviously, pushing AA every time you get it preflop is unexploitable but knowing that isn't really helpful.

For instance, Hu at the end of full STTs when you and your opponent have ~10xBB you can find an unexploitable strategy for *any* opponent....you may make much more money playing an exploitable strategy that ends up exploiting your opponent.....in a deeper stack HU match you can't even 'solve' without knowing something about your opponent.

I dunno....my point is that in STTs many 'pushbots' can go on sorta autopilot and never watch what their opponents are doing...in HU you can't really do this - which is why it's very difficult to multitable and maintain a robust ROI (and most high buyin players I know of can't even play more than 1 or 2 profitably ....whereas any other form of poker they can play bajillions of tables).

Bah...that barely makes sense.....meh.

Yugoslav
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  #7  
Old 12-05-2005, 08:41 PM
microbet microbet is offline
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Default Re: OT: Heads up starting hands

You can't just sit around in a HU game until you have 10 or so BBs or a monster. If you have a deep stack, you will generally have to play multiple streets. It is very difficult to do the math on multiple streets.
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  #8  
Old 12-05-2005, 08:53 PM
bones bones is offline
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Posts: 56
Default Re: OT: Heads up starting hands

[ QUOTE ]
I know the sklansky NL hand chart, but doesn't that only apply to after all the cards have been dealt?


[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? If you're referring to karlson-sklansky, they are preflop all-in rankings. They have nothing to do with playing multiple streets in deep stacked poker. No hand ranking chart is used after all of the cards have been dealt except the general sf>quads>boat>etc.
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  #9  
Old 12-05-2005, 08:57 PM
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Default Re: OT: Heads up starting hands

[ QUOTE ]
Lando,

One more time: IT'S NOT ABOUT YOUR CARDS IT'S ABOUT YOUR OPPONENT.

Not only does this really apply to all poker....it especially does to these deep stacks HU STTs where there really aren't objectively 'correct' plays based on pure math. You need to know your opponent and it will affect the math way more than in a 10H STT or MTT or whatever.

As for starting hands vs. 'normal' lowish buyin HU STT players....you can play a huge range and raise a lot b/c you're always up vs. a random hand...it's not like a ring game where you're up against 9 hands when someone or other likely has a premium hand. You can almost play HU without looking at your cards until you face a big bet/raise and know that you need to have 'it'....in fact, I think I'm going to try just that.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a very good post. vnh
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