Altering txaq007's Question For Christians.

[udontknowmickey]

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So to clarify:

You believe that when God was establishing the Jewish people, starting with Abraham leaving Ur etc, that God planned on Christ always coming, but before he sent him the Jews that lived were saved, but once he came, the Jews that rejected lost the 'grace' that was in pre-christ salvation?


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I believe that God had (planned to) crucified Christ from before time began. Thus those of Israel that were saved had faith in Jesus as a comming sin bearer who would take their sins. Jesus' coming didn't change whether or not people were saved or not, merely changed the name that was given to the person by which they were saved.

[sexdrugsmoney]

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So to clarify:

You believe that when God was establishing the Jewish people, starting with Abraham leaving Ur etc, that God planned on Christ always coming, but before he sent him the Jews that lived were saved, but once he came, the Jews that rejected lost the 'grace' that was in pre-christ salvation?


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I believe that God had (planned to) crucified Christ from before time began.

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Ok I understand this view but require clarification on the next part.

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Thus those of Israel that were saved had faith in Jesus as a comming sin bearer who would take their sins.

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You mean any Jew pre-Christ-on-earth that believed a Messiah would come?

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Jesus' coming didn't change whether or not people were saved or not, merely changed the name that was given to the person by which they were saved.

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I'm just trying to 'pinpoint' within your view, the time Jews lost their grace.

Did it happen when Christ began his ministry or at the crucifixion, or after the resurrection etc?

Cheers,
SDM

[udontknowmickey]

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You mean any Jew pre-Christ-on-earth that believed a Messiah would come?


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with the acknowledgement that not all of Isreal are really "of Israel" (a la Romans 9) then yes. All those that God had predestined precross believed and looked foward to a Messiah to come.

There was no person that existed that was was going to be saved had he died earlier, then Christ came and he wasn't.

While there are times when God extends his spirit so that non-believers may prophecy and the like (King Saul is an example), there isn't a place (or time) where God had previously extended saving grace and then withdrew it.

[sexdrugsmoney]

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You mean any Jew pre-Christ-on-earth that believed a Messiah would come?


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with the acknowledgement that not all of Isreal are really "of Israel" (a la Romans 9) then yes. All those that God had predestined precross believed and looked foward to a Messiah to come.

There was no person that existed that was was going to be saved had he died earlier, then Christ came and he wasn't.

While there are times when God extends his spirit so that non-believers may prophecy and the like (King Saul is an example), there isn't a place (or time) where God had previously extended saving grace and then withdrew it.

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I think I understand the viewpoint you are coming from now; that pre-christ the only saved were the ones God predestined to be saved (grace) and likewise any Jew that accepted Christ when he came on earth was also predestined to be saved, while the rejectors God predestined to be stubborn, the same as some of Israel he had predestined to be stubborn from the beginning of the Israelites?

Does that accurately describe your beliefs?

Cheers,
SDM

[udontknowmickey]

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I think I understand the viewpoint you are coming from now; that pre-christ the only saved were the ones God predestined to be saved (grace) and likewise any Jew that accepted Christ when he came on earth was also predestined to be saved, while the rejectors God predestined to be stubborn, the same as some of Israel he had predestined to be stubborn from the beginning of the Israelites?

Does that accurately describe your beliefs?


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I would assent to all that you've said above, but in the interest of preventing people from misinterpreted I will add a few things.

Those that God predestines to be saved, he will call (though the precross or postcross gospel) and they will come to faith in a messiah or in Christ (depending upon when they live). Romans 8:28-30 sums it up fairly well (emphasis placed upon v. 30)

28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

True to my beliefs in a strict predestination, the condition on being saved isn't strictly on if they come to faith or not, it's on if they are chosen. Those that God chooses He brings to faith.

But yes, that's a pretty good summary