Durbin's Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo

[andyfox]

"Everyone should stop and and think about just how destructive to rationality, AND THEREFORE TO RATIONAL SOLUTIONS, such deceptive hyperbole can be."

But a politician's stock in trade is neither rationality nor rational decisions. It's getting reelected, looking good, and interpreting events to fit his ideology and preconceived notions. As I've brought up here time and time again, especially when it comes to war and going to war, lies and damned lies are the rule of the day. The president claims if we don't invade a country we'll see a mushroom cloud here; his opponent says he voted for the money for the troops before he voted against it; and a senator compares cold temperatures to Dachau.

SOP. And SOB.

[MMMMMM]

Points taken but that's still no excuse. Why can't pandering politicians strive to emulate Abe Lincoln rather than (insert best suited name here; I can't think of a good example at the moment)?

Also, isn't the phrase "stock and trade" rather than "stock in trade"? That's just the way I always presumed it to be;-) As I recall, Cris Brown used this phrase when posting about how she would play Scrabble with Paul Phillips for money ("words are my stock in trade")? It struck me as strange then and still does.

Hey maybe it's both [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] I'm off to Google for exactly 2 minutes.

edited after Google: Hmmm looks like "stock in trade" is it, and better fitted. Guess that makes more sense anyway.

Another day, another useless bit of trivia learned.

[kurto]

the funny part about this is that people arbitrarily decide there are multiple reports, that they then choose the report they like best.

I believe he's referring to the 2000 page recently declassified report that was released. Its not like picking your favorite newspaper. Its an official military report.

Most people with half a brain aren't contesting what's been going on in the prisons... they're objecting to Durbin's choice of words.

The people pretending that he's cherry-picking what reports he refers to are laughable.

[adios]

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the funny part about this is that people arbitrarily decide there are multiple reports, that they then choose the report they like best.

I believe he's referring to the 2000 page recently declassified report that was released. Its not like picking your favorite newspaper. Its an official military report.

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What report are you referring to? Durbin cited a report by an FBI agent and not a military report. Nice try at revisionismm.

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Most people with half a brain aren't contesting what's been going on in the prisons... they're objecting to Durbin's choice of words.

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As many have pointed out comaring Guantanamo detainee treatment to the treatment that Nazi's would dole out is offensive to many in that it trivializes what the crimes of the Nazi's. Since your another arbiter of the truth what is the truth and how do you back up this claim about most people? The American people are entitled to know the truth and if Durbin can further that end then he should do so. If he can't produce the report then one has to question his motives.

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The people pretending that he's cherry-picking what reports he refers to are laughable.

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All you have to do is produce the report that Durbin is referring to. I would really like to see it and make my own evaluation rather than Durbin make it for me thank you very much.. Any links or posted copies would be greatly appreciated. I thought it would be a simple matter to produce this report but I couldn't find it. I searched the Congressional record and counldn't find it among other places. I'm starting to think either this report doesn't exist or that Durbin is misconstruing the contents. You believe it's laughable that a politician would practive demagoguery by selectively using reports that supported his political aims (or even worse fabricating information)? Now that is what I call laughable.


A follow up article regarding Durbin's comments:

Senator Regrets if Remarks Misunderstood

From the article:

Durbin made the comparison after reading an
FBI agent's report describing detainees at the Naval base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, as being chained to the floor without food or water in extreme temperatures.

"If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime — Pol Pot or others — that had no concern for human beings," Durbin said Tuesday.

Waiting for a yet another revision to history where the FBI agents report is part of some nebulous military report.


On Friday, Durbin tried to clarify the issue. "My statement in the Senate was critical of the policies of this Administration, which add to the risk our soldiers face," he said in a statement released Friday afternoon. "I have learned from my statement that historical parallels can be misused and misunderstood. I sincerely regret if what I said caused anyone to misunderstand my true feelings: Our soldiers around the world and their families at home deserve our respect, admiration and total support."

Durbin acknowledging that he more or less went over the top and offended many by his comments because there actually is no comparision between Gitmo detainees treatment and treatment of that the Nazis and Soviets dished out to their enemies.

The Anti-Defamation League on Thursday had joined lawmakers and other groups in calling for an apology.

Suggesting some kind of equivalence between (U.S. military) interrogation tactics demonstrates a profound lack of understanding about the horrors that Hitler and his regime actually perpetrated," the league said in a letter to Durbin that was posted to its Web site.

I guess another group with half a brain.



Durbin had said Thursday that he had never brought U.S. soldiers into the comparison in the first place, and that he was criticizing the approved interrogation methods described in an FBI memo obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request.

First reference I've seen to some details about the report. Why hasn't Durbin been forthcoming as to what report it is? Want to bet any money that there are government reports available that would contradict what Durbin is saying?

[adios]

A link to some interesting debate from the Congressional Record:

Durbin Being Questioned by Senators About his Remarks



These statememts by Senator Warner of Virginia (one of the moderate Republicans who forged the comprimise on filibusters btw) basically sums up the point I've made:

Mr. WARNER. You are reading from a report of one of our investigative agencies. There is no verification of the accuracy of that report. You take it at face value. I pointed out--and I discussed it with Secretary Rumsfeld--this allegation of the FBI agent, together with a lot of other facts, is now being carefully scrutinized under our established judicial process.
I trained as a lawyer and many years as a prosecutor and dealt with the Bureau. I have the highest respect for them. But I do not accept at face value everything they put down on paper until I make certain it can be corroborated and substantiated.
For you to have come to the floor with just that fragment of a report and then unleash the words ``the Nazis,'' unleash the word ``gulag,'' unleash ``Pol Pot''--I don't know how many remember that chapter--it seems to me that was the greatest error in judgment, and it leaves open to the press of the world to take those three extraordinary chapters in world history and try and intertwine it with what has taken place allegedly at Guantanamo.
I am perfectly willing to be a part of as much of an investigation as the Senate should perform and will in my committee. But I am not going to come to the floor with just one report in hand and begin to impugn the actions of those in charge, namely, the uniformed personnel, at this time. We should allow matters of this type to be very carefully examined before we jump to a conclusion.

and

Mr. WARNER. I would say, Madam President, I served as assistant U.S. attorney for 5 years and dealt with the FBI all the time. I have very high regard for that service. But the Senator knows full well that is just an investigative report by one agent. It is under investigation by the Bureau and by the Department of Defense at this time in the context
of many other pieces of evidence. One cannot come to this great forum, which is viewed the world over as one which is known for trying to assert the rights of this country as taking its place in the world, as following due process and
principles of our Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights and comment to the Senate about some young uniformed person who probably is the subject of that FBI report--until such time as that person in uniform is adjudicated in a proper forum as to having done that is alleged in that report, or not done, it seems to me we
shouldn't be discussing it in the Senate.

[jokerswild]

that your fuhrer wants to put you and MMMMM's kind in gitmo too? He believesw that men that have sex with men are sub-human, damned to hell, and deserve the treatment that they get.

[andyfox]

You know, I didn't know whether it was stock in trade or stock and trade, I had to look it up too.

I wouldn't worry too much about this particular senator. Frankly, I hadn't even heard of him before this speech. Ahd I wouldn't be surprised if "Honest Abe" was a P/R creation too.

[kurto]

You say:
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What report are you referring to? Durbin cited a report by an FBI agent and not a military report. Nice try at revisionismm.


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Yet I said:
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I believe he's referring to the 2000 page recently declassified report that was released.

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So your accusation of revisionism falls flat. Perhaps you were unclear how "I believe" modifies the statement?

Second, the fact that both the 2000 page military report AND the report that by an FBI agent both corroborrate that torture has taken place only strengthens the case that torture is taking place.

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As many have pointed out comaring Guantanamo detainee treatment to the treatment that Nazi's would dole out is offensive to many in that it trivializes what the crimes of the Nazi's.

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I have already said in another thread that I thought a lot of people on both sides are quick to compare people to Nazis. Both sides do it. (just so people can't pretend its one sided, both Pat Buchanan and Rick Santorum both did it recently) I have also repeatedly said that people who get outraged over inappropriate analogies OVER the fact that people are being tortured have their priorities screwed up.

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Since your another arbiter of the truth what is the truth and how do you back up this claim about most people?

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Look on this forum. Many conservatives admit that torture is happening (many of them excuse it, but they don't deny it.) Both the Military reports and FBI have confirmed this. The people who are doubting it are just arbitrarily deciding all the investigations are wrong.

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The American people are entitled to know the truth and if Durbin can further that end then he should do so. If he can't produce the report then one has to question his motives.


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Is it your contention that he's making up reports because its not in your hands? If so, you're ridiculous. Who besides partisan whacks on this board is doubting the existence of the report? Sheesh.

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All you have to do is produce the report that Durbin is referring to.

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Unfortunately you may not get access to FBI reports. Has the FBI denied the existence of the report? If you want to pretend that he's made a report, that's fine. If its not in your hands, its probably not real. Usually you get all FBI reports... can't imagine why you weren't cc'd on this one.

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I'm starting to think either this report doesn't exist or that Durbin is misconstruing the contents.

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Yeah... that makes sense. If the report isn't shown to you, it probably doesn't exist. Again... I haven't heard the FBI deny the existence of the report or anyone else. But if the FBI doesn't give you access to all their reports.. then they probably don't exist. You made a GREAT argument.

Maybe you should write the FBI and make sure you get clearance for all internal memos. Since nothing is real unless you have it.

[kurto]

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this allegation of the FBI agent, together with a lot of other facts, is now being carefully scrutinized under our established judicial process.


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So, they're scrutinizing the report. So they acknowledge the report. Don't you look foolish.

[trippin bily]

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Apparently you guys don't read.

Even a number of well-read conservatives on the board have said that you're just ridiculous if you don't think people are being tortured. (And for the record, we have tortured people to death.)

People are being smeared. Try reading. Keep up.

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Uhhh.... nope.
People aren'tbeing tortured they are being questioned.
Torture consists of cutting off limbs, burning parts of your body etc..
The problem lies with what you want to call torture.
The methods we use are HUMANE. Sleep deprivation is humane.In the end no one is hurt.It is a proven way to gather information.
As far as prisoners being tortured to death...
there are 2 and only 2 that are in question.
2 men died while being questioned in afghanastan. Over 2 years ago. In both cases the soldiers were tried and convicted by a milatary court. You need to read and get your facts straight.
NO ONE has died at gitmo.
The very memo that Durbin read was about questioning the 20th hi jacker who is, by the way, still very much alive.
Information gathered from him and others has prevented attacks.
I and I believe others like me don't disagree that what Durbin said takes place. We just believe that turning up or down the airconditioner consists of torture.
It certainly doesn't consist of the heinous crimes committed by the nazis of soviets etc.
Equating the nazis to our soldiers puts them in more danger than they are already in.
The fact that Durbin read anything with the word "airconditioner" followed by "torture" is laughable.