Q9s on button

[curtains]

***** Hand History for Game 3196845140 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $200 Buy-in + $15 Entry Fee Trny:18256742 Level:5 Blinds(75/150) - Tuesday, December 13, 21:56:02 EDT 2005
Table Table 67033 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 2: jlidtb6 ( $1705 )
Seat 3: AKR23 ( $2205 )
Seat 4: StiffStuff ( $510 )
Seat 6: pishka ( $2875 )
Seat 8: ILuvCurtains ( $2705 )
Trny:18256742 Level:5
Blinds(75/150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ILuvCurtains [ Qd 9d ]
StiffStuff folds.
pishka folds.
Your turn:



Yes the hand is boring, but I think that knowing exactly what to do in the most boring situations that come up all the time, is one of the most important qualities. I'm surprised by what I did here, and am quite sure it's incorrect.

[Elektrik]

I'm fine with either folding or making it 400 or so; I probably just fold.

I don't think the EV between the plays is that huge either, unless the blinds are known to be aggressive in which case I'm just folding. Or if the blinds are known to be weak tight I'm much more inclined to raise.

[curtains]

You aren't on IM, I was looking for you.

[curtains]

Yeah it is pretty boring, I just want to know exactly what to do. Against the following call ranges (that are wayyy too loose IMO, 55+,ATo+,A8s+,KQs, pushing is almost breakeven). If they get to the following range (66+,ATs+,AJo+), which is Still tighter than some may be, it becomes +.2%.

In any case I feel that the evidence suggests that it's appropriate to make some kind of raise, and that raising to 400 or so is the right play. Whenever simply opening allin has such a good chance of being +EV, it pains me to simply fold my hand.

In any matter, I don't believe it's of the utmost importance to not fold here. It's hard to prove mathematically because its not just some push/fold situation, but I suspect that it's correct to raise something. Can anyone prove me wrong?

[tigerite]

I think a raise is in order, but a fold probably isn't terribly losing a whole lot of $EV. It just seems very weak to me. If the SB was the BB (and vice versa) then I might find a fold as he would have just the kind of stack where he can play back at you more - 10-11bb, but as it is, I find it quite unlikely he will do that with the BB to go through as well, without a really good hand.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah it is pretty boring, I just want to know exactly what to do. Against the following call ranges (that are wayyy too loose IMO, 55+,ATo+,A8s+,KQs, pushing is almost breakeven). If they get to the following range (66+,ATs+,AJo+), which is Still tighter than some may be, it becomes +.2%.

In any case I feel that the evidence suggests that it's appropriate to make some kind of raise, and that raising to 400 or so is the right play. Whenever simply opening allin has such a good chance of being +EV, it pains me to simply fold my hand.

In any matter, I don't believe it's of the utmost importance to not fold here. It's hard to prove mathematically because its not just some push/fold situation, but I suspect that it's correct to raise something. Can anyone prove me wrong?



[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if I can prove you wrong, but I see a potential flaw in the logic "if there's a good chance pushing would be +EV, folding can't be right."

The difference between pushing and raising when you know you'll have to fold to a re-raise is quite large.

All of the math behind the value of pushing incorporates the expectation you gain from sometimes being ahead, and sometimes winning even when you are behind. Obviously you lose all of this when you fold after VPIP.

If your opponents would only re-raise you with hands that beat you, the argument for making a raise would be stronger. But there are probably at least a few hands your opponent could hold which would fold to a push, but push against a small raise by you. (TJs comes to mind, or maybe a very small pair.)

You also have the problem of seeing a flop and being made to fold a better hand, or being trapped by a better hand that wouldn't have extracted all of your chips with a different preflop action.

In other words, by making a small raise you introduce into the EV equation a lot of possibilities that don't exist when you push. You become much more likely to lose a "small" amount, but still susceptible to losing everything. You are also allowing your opponents an opportunity to outplay you... even if they do it by accident.

So, I think that in order for a raise to be correct here, your opponents would have to be very unlikely to push with a worse hand, very unlikely to stop-n-go you, very unlikely to bluff at the pot after the flop, and willing to fold often to a small preflop raise. These circumstances sometimes exist, and I would sometimes raise with this hand here.

But, I think folding preflop would be more correct than raising more often than not. If I'm wrong about this, I don't think it's because of anything that push/fold ICM calculations can prove.

Irieguy

[Roman]

yup, thanks for saying what I was way too lazy to type out.

[curtains]

Well my point when I say that "folding" can't be right because pushing seems +EV, implies that pushing is superior to folding. However as much as I love to grab the +.2% or +.3% situatons, this is a spot where my large stack can seriously allow me to expect greater +EV spots in the future. This combined with the fact that I don't know just how tight they are going to be, makes this a spot where I'm willing to not just move allin for 225 chips. It MAY be very slightly +EV against the right opponents to just push, but it's really pushing it in this spot.

My next logical thoguht was to figure out a reason for why making a normal raise would be appropriate. I'm sure its ok and I would definitely do so against some opponents, but it's probably a situation where you can just go either way depending on your feel of the opponents.

[TheUsher]

Raise it to 350 and play some poker if called. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[bennies]

Sssh! You said the p word...

To OP, play it like it's aces. I'm sure you have some standard raise, go ahead with 380 or something else that probably needs typing.

I might fold this against maniac/tilting opponents who don't know that you know they are maniac/tilting...