PLO8: Much low, little high

The Gift Of Gab · #1 08-21-2003, 07:30 AM

5-5 PLO8. Killed on the button, making it 10 to go. Bad player limps in LP, SB calls, I raise to 40 straight with

A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

and the button, loose player and SB all call. We see

Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

I'm new to both flavors of Omaha, and have run my scared 200 buy-in up over 1100. I bet 160. The bad player folds, the button raises to 600 straight, and the SB folds. The button is somewhat loose, skilled, and very aggressive. He knows I routinely play a deep stack at NLHE but am inexperienced with the same at Omaha. He has me covered.

I have just under 1k left. Your move? Comments on everything else appreciated.

Greg (FossilMan) · #2 08-21-2003, 11:26 AM

In limit O8, this is a very good flop. In PLO8, this is a mediocre flop, because you have no significant chance of making a high hand.

You could easily be looking at A2 in his hand, plus anything else for high, and you're in trouble. Of course, he might have A23T, and you're a huge favorite to win 3/4, it's hard to judge.

However, you can't expect to win high here very often, and you'll miss or tie the low quite often, so you've got to fold.

Position is more important in this game than in any other game I've got any significant experience playing. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that position is more important in NL lowball, but I can't think of any other game where it might be more important.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Zag · #3 08-21-2003, 11:32 AM

I haven't read any of the replies (or results, if you posted them) yet, but I feel very strong that you should dump it. He has A2 for low and a much better hand for high than you do. You are now drawing to 4 outs, the two remaining A's and 2's each, for half the pot. Otherwise you are just praying for low to get there so you can salvage a quarter. Pitch it.

The Gift Of Gab · #4 08-21-2003, 05:10 PM

Thanks for the replies. Since I thought he was likely to make a move on me with fairly little, I obstinately pushed in on the flop. After reading your replies, I agree that this was a serious mistake. Too many possible hands have me coming out with 1/4 or nothing.

In this case, it worked out well. He had 7432 for the wrap, against which I had almost 70% equity. The board finished Q65 - 5 - Q and I scooped with AJ high.

tewall · #5 08-22-2003, 04:09 PM

In hi/lo replacement games it's very important, so you can get a line on which way your opponent is going.

Ulysses · #6 08-22-2003, 04:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I obstinately pushed in on the flop. After reading your replies, I agree that this was a serious mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it great when these work out, though? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

So, was this in Hayward against Keith by any chance? You should come to Colma Sunday night...

sam h · #7 08-22-2003, 08:49 PM

I probably would fold to the flop raise, as this flop isn't that great for you for the reasons Greg pointed out.

For the same reasons, I don't really like the preflop raise. You're out of position and this isn't a premium hand. On what boards do you see yourself scooping or taking 3/4s of a big pot? Even if you make a wheel, you are unlikely to get significant action unless somebody ties you or quarters you with a wheel/straight6 combination. Your only hope is to quarter another nut low and make a flush as well and committing a lot of chips to do this is naturally risky since you are in prime position to get quartered yourself.

Bozeman · #8 08-23-2003, 12:53 AM

This was the hand that crippled me in a tourney today, I called some of my stack on the flop and all of it on the turn q874 with A923 against A299.

Biggest mistake in a week,
Craig

ben mo · #9 08-23-2003, 01:17 PM

I also don't think you should have raised with this hand preflop. It's much stronger in limit, since you get a lot of equity from having uncounterfeitable lows and low draws. Good hands in pot limit play for hi also, and this hand gives you AJ for hi, a draw to the low end of a straight, and a non-nut flush draw. Also, if you get two small pair, you'll no longer have a low. If you had A236, or A23J with the ace suited instead of the jack, I'd say it becomes a raising hand.

ben

crockpot · #10 08-25-2003, 02:47 AM

why are you raising pre-flop? you should be doing this either because you want to limit the field with a good heads-up hand or because your hand has great scoop potential in a multiway pot. your hand has neither going for it. about the only reason i can think of to raise with this hand is to set up a flop steal, which is not what you want to be doing against loose players out of position.

on the flop, you have an easy fold if your opponent is a solid player as you say. that is, unless the dealer just flashed you the turn card and it's a 4. even an ace is not likely to give you a scoop.