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  #1  
Old 12-29-2005, 02:54 AM
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Default Can You Call This down.

First I want to say that I know that slowplaying is not the optimum way to play the queens on third. I rarely play it this way. It was played that way here as a change of pace, mixing things up occasionaly. I was looking to create a more action oriented hand, which I unfortunatly got. If you want to comment on that aspect go ahead, but I believe it is ok to change how you play a type of hand on occasion.

I will point out the critical part of the hand later if it is not commented on.

Seat 1 is a very aggresive better and is not afraid to put in reraises in a hand. In general, he will usually look to play with quality, but aggresivly; sometimes overagressive.

Seat 2 also looks ot play quality usually, but can also do some aggresive betting at time also, especially in multi way pots.

Seat 5 is a loose player. Plays many hands and likes to draw to hands. Not overly aggresive.

Seat 8 is also a loose caller.

Seat 4, our hero, is the player that help create this mess.


7 Card Stud High ($5/$10), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $2 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in

4th Street - (2.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls

5th Street - (6.30 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___raises
Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___folds

6th Street - (14.30 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls

River - (18.30 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___checks___raises
Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___bets___calls
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___checks___folds

Total pot: (22.30 BB)
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  #2  
Old 12-29-2005, 03:30 AM
MrBlueNose MrBlueNose is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 147
Default Re: Can You Call This down.

That is one of the biggest clusterducks I've seen! Nasty mess you got yourself into [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] The way you describe the players, I think calling 5th is fine. Assuming Seat 2 is betting a draw based on your read, could we raise 6th? Is Seat 1 going to fold there?
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  #3  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:33 AM
Roland Roland is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2005
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Posts: 343
Default Re: Can You Call This down.

I would fold 5th, for several reasons:

Obviously, you could be drawing close to dead if seat 2 has the flush. Unless you know for sure that he would 3-bet on 4th in that position with a 4-flush, it seems pretty likely that he, in fact, has it.
Even if he doesnít have it, he could easily have a pair + a 4-flush, kings up, slow played aces or trips. (Once he just smooth-calls the raise, you can probably rule out trips and maybe kings up; but you didnít know that when you made the first call).
I would be worrying about what seat 1 was calling with on 4th. You said he was aggressive, so I assume he would raise on 3rd with jacks; you also said he is somewhat tight, so he probably isnít calling 4th with just a mid pair or an unimproved 3-flush, especially sine he has to fear a 3-bet from seat 2. Thus, Iíd say his most likely holdings are 3-flush + deuces (not the greatest call ever, but possible), slow played aces (giving him trips on 5th), rolled jacks or the unlikely pocket deuces (also giving him trips). To sum it up, he should have either a 4-flush + pair with an over card or trips.

Like I said, once seat 2 just calls the raise, you can probably rule out trips or kings up, plus you donít fear a raise behind you, so you should call the raise.
Raising 6th looks like a bad idea to me. You are almost definitely behind and itís unlikely anybody is going to fold.
River is an easy fold I think, since the pot is protected with seat 5 still in there. Besides, the only other option would be to raise and that would clearly suck.
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  #4  
Old 12-29-2005, 07:16 AM
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Default Re: Can You Call This down.

First, I see you realize that this is a very complex situation, partly casued by me because of my slow play on 3rd. Had I raised right away on 3rd, i believe several would fold and the hand is totally different, but as explained I chose to take a different root. However, once I saw that the party was getting crowded, I decided to open it up raising on 4th.

Your analysis of seat 1 and his holding looks plausable as to what he might hold. And it is what i put him on while I was playing it. The trickiness of the hand is now what do seat 2 and seat 5 have. As both will play a crucial part in my latter street decisions.

As for seat 2, He's betting on 5th after my showing strength on 4th, making his 3 spades look like a flush, but as I am sure you noticed, many spades are out. Had spades been live, I might have just given up the hand there.

Now what in the world in the wildcard in this hand, seat 5, doing. As said, he is a loose player. He will look start with some semblance of a hand, but once he is in, he will likely play it to the end. His catching a pair of nines creates worry for me.


As you may or may not know, this is actually the first hand that i posted. And there are several reasons for that. This hand is froma couple of months ago that i saved. I held onto it because I thought that there was some brilliant play by one of the players in this hand. One of the reasons that I don't post hands is that not too many hands that I play do I found interesting or novel, but this one is a gem, as you will see later.
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  #5  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:28 PM
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Default Re: Can You Call This down.

Of importance, is the effect of seat 5's play on this hand. He has my hands tied. Sure wish I could get a peak at his cards.
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  #6  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:56 PM
TheSalche TheSalche is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 97
Default Re: Can You Call This down.

I agree with Roland's post about folding 5th, boards are decently scary, and you aren't losing anybody. The only thing you have going for you is that you haven't seen one of your other two queens yet, but there no guarantee trips w/o being filled are winning this pot.

I think not raising 3rd is fine, given your read on seats 5 and 8 as loose callers, it doesn't seem like you're losing them, and once they call, seats 1 and 2 are staying in the hand because the pot is too big to fold 3rd.

Of course if there was a completion ahead of you, by all means, raise away.
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  #7  
Old 12-29-2005, 07:08 PM
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Default Re: Can You Call This down.

It is true that 5th street presents me with 3 hands that could all be better than mine at this point. I could be looking at aces from seat 1 or a flush draw, and from seat 2 i could be looking at a flush or draw or kings and seat 5, the wild card hand of this hand has a pair on board, so i know he is not going anywhere.

But, and this is a big but, I still belived that at this point I still had the best hand. I just wasn't certain of it becasue seat 5 is really bugging me out with his hand and position on me. Everything I do will always be before seat 5 acts and that could create problems for me.

Becasue I think I might have the best and the pot is large, I decide to play on. Perhaps a raise on 5th might have done some good stuff for me.
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  #8  
Old 12-30-2005, 02:38 PM
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Default Re: Can You Call This down. - SURPRISING RESULTS!

The difficulty in the hand was that seat 5 had a pair on board. And seat 2 was betting into that. Given that, I could not find a way to call this down on the river wheni did not approve.

As can be seen, seat 2 knew this and made a beautiful play by betting. His betting forced me to fold. But after I folded, seat 5 folded. And then seizing the opportunity, seat 1 made a play by raising and once again seat 2 made an excellent play by calling with only a pair of 4's, beating seat 1 that had only a pair of 2's. Therefore, I folded the best hand.

I still do not see how I could have called the river, but calling the river was indeed the correct move. So the question becomes, is there a way I can call the river and two, is there a way I could have played differently, perhaps on 5th or 6th, that would have given me the hand. Seat 2 played this hand like a genious. Seat 2 played me, And it was briliant!!
And it all worked becasue of seat 5 and his exposed pair.

7 Card Stud High ($5/$10), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $2 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in

4th Street - (2.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls

5th Street - (6.30 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___raises
Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___folds

6th Street - (14.30 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls

River - (18.30 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___checks___raises
Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___bets___calls
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___checks___folds

Total pot: (22.30 BB)

Results:
Main Pot: $220 | Rake: $3

Seat 1: [ 9h 2h Jh 2c Ah 4c 7d ] [ a pair of twos -- Ah,Jh,9h,2h,2c ]

Seat 2: [ 6h 4d 4s 5s Ks 8h Ts ] [ a pair of fours -- Ks,Ts,8h,4d,4s ]
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  #9  
Old 12-30-2005, 04:06 PM
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Default Re: Can You Call This down.

Your raise on 4th is what got my attention. I don't see the value in it. If everyone is a loose caller, what were you trying to achieve here? I understand mixing your play, but you're facing 1 over card and two possible str and/or flush draws. Agreed spades are scarce with 6 known out, but there are still 7 to catch and make. I might even fold here.

5th street is an easy laydown to me. Seat 2 makes his flush and Seat 5 pairs up when you hit a brick. Release this puppy.

JMO - Knoll
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  #10  
Old 12-30-2005, 06:31 PM
BTirish BTirish is offline
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Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 128
Default Re: Can You Call This down. - SURPRISING RESULTS!

Seat 2 isn't a genius. He's spewing, and it worked out because no one had improved at all. You said that Seat 5 is loose-passive. If Seat 2 has a pattern mapper and knew that Seat 5 only had the pair of 9's and that he would fold when bet into, then good for him. There's pretty much no chance that a loose-passive player is folding 9's up on the river for one bet. Could I have called here? Doubtful, but maybe, if these yahoos had been playing like this on previous hands. I'm hardly ever in spots like this because I would have raised 3rd and gotten out on 5th street.
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