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#51
12-13-2005, 04:41 AM
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
[ QUOTE ]
I think it depends on the type of cactus. For instance, I believe that there is a cactus out there with a pretty bad attitude [/ QUOTE ] Awesome! 
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#53
12-13-2005, 02:19 PM
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
 This is what I meant. [ QUOTE ] While I personally kind of have an eye-rolling mentality toward people who sport the Confederate flag, considering it a justiable bannable offense seems absolutely absurd to me. [/ QUOTE ] I can understand this, but coming from Mississippi I am accutely aware of what it means. This was not a popular flag until 1954 Brown decision in support of segregation (and to a lesser extent with the 1948 candidacy of Strom Thurmond). Basically, it is a hate symbol. It does not "really" stand for state's rights... people learned in Southern politics know what most (Southern) people mean when they "state's rights" anyhow, and that "heritage not hate" is a lie. I do agree it might not be legitmately bannable, and my own (admittedly strong) opinions regarding this particular symbol are probably in the minority here. It's really not a problem anyhow (thankfully). I am also a free speech guy. There is a movement here on the campus of LSU to ban this flag:  which is waved by (white) fans and students at LSU sporting events. It's kind of a big deal on campus -- there have been repeated marches. You should see the white "fans" yelling at the black protestors... calling them n*ggers and such. It's really disgusting. The thing is, as much as I sympathize with the feelings of the (mostly) black protestors, they are wrong. It's a freedom of speech issue. LSU is a public university, and as such should allow the public display any symbol (even the swastika). (2p2 on the other hand is a private entity and can censor much more liberally.) That was long winded I know -- you are probably not a Southerner though, and it's hard to fully understand this issue if you are not. "Heritage not hate" is a *wink-wink* kinda thing.
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#54
12-17-2005, 09:03 AM
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
[ QUOTE ]
Basically, it is a hate symbol. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] you are probably not a Southerner though, and it's hard to fully understand this issue if you are not. [/ QUOTE ] I think this is pretty much what it boils down to. You think it's purely a hate issue and nothing else; others do not. In the same way, some people may view a symbol such as the Christian cross as purely a hate symbol, while others will not. Same goes with the current US flag. The majority of Americans will usually side on one side or the other on these issues, but that has necessarily no bearing whatsoever on which side is "right" or "wrong". Say I was someone from the mid 13th century who happened to be born in Syria. Could I be faulted if I stated that the symbol of the cross was purely a symbol based on hate and the desire to spill innocent blood? No. I would have every reason to say that and to believe it with every bone in me. Now say I was an orphan who was dying of malnutrion on the streets of London during the same time period, and was taken in by a loving Christian family because of their faith and loved and raised as their own. Would I be wrong to think that the symbol of the religion that in essence saved my life was nothing but good and praise-worthy? No, that would obviously be a perfectly reasonable opinion to have. So which of these people's beliefs would be in the wrong? The point is I'm not saying either you or either of them are necessarily right or wrong, but rather you should all realize that yours is a matter purely of opinion and nothing more. So ask yourself honestly, do you really think we should make the Conderate flag bannable? Or even better, do you really think the Confederate flag is bad or evil in some way? More specifically, is it necessarily any more or less of those characteristics than the Christian cross, the American flag, or the Wiscosin Highway Patrol logo? In the end, I really hope we are all intelligent enough to realize that just because we (individually) may feel very strongly one way or another about symbols, political or otherwise, does not mean our opinion is anything more than just that - an opinion, nor does it make the symbols themselves nor the people who may feel differently about them than we do, evil or bad in any way. And not only for the sake of our moderating decisions here, but in applying the same objecctive and logical thinking in our everyday lives. GoT
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#55
12-17-2005, 02:49 PM
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
Good points. I did concede though that I would not be banning anyone for using the confederate flag. Do I think it's bannable? Probably not. Is a swastika? Probably.
The idea that symbols mean different things to different people is certainly valid for most symbols -- and to some extent or another all symbols. But many, to some degree or another have some universal meaning that does not encompass of of thier meaning. To right wing fruitcakes in Montana or Alberta, a confederate flag likely means white nationalism. In Mississippi or Alabama it (usually) means pride in being a white Southerner who hates the blackies on welfare. These ideas are not identical, but similar, and have some overlap. [ QUOTE ] do you really think the Confederate flag is bad or evil in some way? [/ QUOTE ] That is really not the issue. (I could go into some speel about my secular humanist philosophy, but I won't, which I sure you are grateful for. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])) The issue is whether it is generally offensive. Your overall point is slightly reductionist. "It's just a symbol right?" Okay, well are the letters f, u, c, and k offensive? Of course not, but when I put them together, oh [censored] look that happens! My point: it's not the symbol itself which is offensive but the meaning, that is the intent behind it. A symbol is, after all, only some colors and shapes. Inherently it can't hurt anyone. But try telling that to a black LSU player who runs into the endzone scoring a touchdown to see a bunch of rednecks waving a purple and gold rebel flag around.
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#56
12-17-2005, 08:59 PM
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
Can you think of any living people for whom the Confederate flag has positive connotation? Has a party or organization represented by the Confderate flag helped anyone lately? I don't think people that like it because it's a fun thing to wave around in their backyard while their dad bangs their sister count in this instance. I'm talking about people who have reason to believe that the Confederate flag and what it represents have improved their quality of life (like your orphan example). I can't think of any at the moment.
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#57
12-17-2005, 10:24 PM
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
Well, now I have no idea what to think. Here's what just popped up in OOT:
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#58
12-17-2005, 10:32 PM
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
[ QUOTE ]
Can you think of any living people for whom the Confederate flag has positive connotation? Has a party or organization represented by the Confderate flag helped anyone lately? I don't think people that like it because it's a fun thing to wave around in their backyard while their dad bangs their sister count in this instance. I'm talking about people who have reason to believe that the Confederate flag and what it represents have improved their quality of life (like your orphan example). I can't think of any at the moment. [/ QUOTE ] There is an interesting correlary to this. Yr point is totally valid, and while I don't think there is any reasonable group of people that truly thinks of the confederate flad as having a positive connotation, many whites in the South love to portray this myth of a Condederate golden age. States had rights, political sovereignty was properly decentralized, and people were happy. Slavery was not as bad as people say, and most masters were good to thier slaves and took care of them in this rural agrarian paternalistic system which stressed values and morals. I am not lying about this -- I am totally serious. There are some people that actually spout this sh*t. Of course, I equate them to Haulocaust deniers (who uncoincidentally hate Jews for the most part).
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