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krishanleong · #1 12-06-2005, 11:35 PM

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, BB folds, Hero raises

Villian was slightly loose passivish. Little weak too.

Krishan

Lmn55d · #2 12-06-2005, 11:39 PM

I'm a big proponent of playing draws passively when it's a good spot, but I think you should definitely raise the flop here. The villain is passive so he won't 3bet too often and knock the BB out. Even if he did 3bet BB will often call. Raising reduces your implied odds on the turn, but a lot of times the passive villain will check if a club hits anyway, especially an overcard.

Raising will often buy you a free card. Plus you have your 33% equity plus a King which will often be good and possibly a 7. Therefore the raise doesn't have to give you a free card too often to be +EV.

I don't like the turn raise because the loose monkey isn't folding anything ever. These plays just never work at 10/20. Never.

#3 12-06-2005, 11:57 PM

Raise the flop for value if nothing else. Make a decision on the turn after that.

Now look at what's happened here: SB donks out into 2 opponents, which usually ins't a pure-bluff (and there's not much to semi-bluff). On the turn he is neither folding a 6 nor a J. Putting 2BB into a 5.5BB pot when you've got about 25% pot equity and opening yourself up to a 3-bet from a 6 doesn't seem too hot here.

TStoneMBD · #4 12-07-2005, 12:04 AM

im really, really, really not a fan of this. raise the flop and dont raise the turn. your equity is so huge with 12+ outs.

7ontheline · #5 12-07-2005, 12:27 AM

Looks like I'm late to the party, but I agree with raising the flop for a free card and am down on raising the turn. SB has a piece of the board if he's donking 2 streets, and your total equity is not enough to make this a value raise when your fold equity is likely so low. His loose-passiveness just reinforces the need for a flop raise since you likely buy a free card that way.

krishanleong · #6 12-07-2005, 08:39 AM

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im really, really, really not a fan of this. raise the flop and dont raise the turn. your equity is so huge with 12+ outs.

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First off everything everyone said about raising the flop I understand. It's my normal line in this spot. My coach doesn't really like it though.

It's not so much about pot equity as it is about fold equity. I don't know if this is the correct spot for it since he did fire into 2 opponents on the turn on an uncoordinated board but the turn raise should, in certain spots, have a decent amount of fold equity.

Krishan

Wynton · #7 12-07-2005, 09:10 AM

I don't think you've got great fold equity here. A slightly loose/passive opponent has bet twice into 2 opponents (and the pf raiser). And now you raise when another flush draw appears, without a K or A showing up. It just doesn't seem likely villain is going to fold.

krishanleong · #8 12-07-2005, 09:59 AM

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It just doesn't seem likely villain is going to fold.

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I agree, I didn't actually raise the turn. But the turn raise with a 8+ out draw is something I intend to work into my game.

I still think not raising the flop is an interesting play.

Krishan

Spicymoose · #9 12-07-2005, 10:06 AM

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[ QUOTE ]
It just doesn't seem likely villain is going to fold.

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I agree, I didn't actually raise the turn. But the turn raise with a 8+ out draw is something I intend to work into my game.

I still think not raising the flop is an interesting play.

Krishan

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I think raising this turn is kinda bad. If he has a 6, you might get 3-bet, even if he is passive, and putting in 3 bets rather than 1 sucks. Also, since he is passive, he isn´t folding his top pair, and so there isn´t much else that you are hoping to fold out. Raising the flop just has too much value not to in this situation.

krishanleong · #10 12-07-2005, 10:10 AM

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Raising the flop just has too much value not to in this situation.

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Can you quantify it?

Run these scenerios. Both call the flop raise, you hit the turn get 1 bet from 1 opponent on turn + river. Both call the raise, you check the turn and hit the river and get 1 bet on river. Both call raise you check turn and miss.

Versus, calling the flop hitting the turn and getting 2 BB on turn, 1 on river. calling flop, calling turn (middle player folds) hitting river and getting 2 BB on river. Calling flop, calling turn, folding river.

Krishan