20/40 -- picking on bigger fish for a few orbits

uw_madtown · #1 10-12-2005, 06:07 AM

Sat at 20/40 tonight as baronzeus said there was an awesome table where the only solid player was NL Soldier. I thieved his blinds once or twice but otherwise we didn't get involved in a hand. Not sure if baronzeus passed on my identity to him or not, or whether he'd know who I am anyway.

Upon further review, I found that the table was as good as advertised, so I sat. Comments on the three major hands I was involved in are appreciated.

No stats because I didn't have any. Players were fairly LAG, overplaying middle/bottom pair (or nothing at all) by 3-betting the turn for example. I'm not used to such aggression. My "usual" game is the Party 3/6 6max.

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, MAIN FISH calls, 3 folds.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Main Fish raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Main Fish bets, Hero raises, Main Fish calls.

River: (8.75 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Main Fish raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

-----

Very next hand.

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP3 posts a blind of $20. CO posts a blind of $20.
1 fold, Hero raises, MP1 (Main Fish) 3-bets, 6 folds, Hero caps, Main Fish calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Main Fish raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Main Fish raises, Hero calls.

River: (11.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Main Fish bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.75 BB

-----

Later on. Villian is a new player, no read.

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero raises, MP calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP raises, Hero calls.

River: (8.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

Paxosmotic · #2 10-12-2005, 06:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Later on. Villian is a new player, no read.

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises, 2 folds, Hero calls.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yikes. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

thesharpie · #3 10-12-2005, 07:02 AM

Why are you opening K4s in the HJ against laggy people that won't give up their blind? I think you need to do less donking and fancy checkraising and more calling down. All of them you called down anyway so where did the gaybetting and checkraising get you apart from putting many more bets in with marginal holdings?

uw_madtown · #4 10-12-2005, 07:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Later on. Villian is a new player, no read.

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises, 2 folds, Hero calls.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yikes. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this was bad PF. FWIW, I had been getting pushed around a bit at that point. This still should have been a fold pre-flop. I'm more interested in post-flop, specifically the turn and river.

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you opening K4s in the HJ against laggy people that won't give up their blind?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because NL Soldier is in the BB. I should have included that. Also, FWIW, these people didn't seem like they were overdefending blinds/buttons, they were just putting in a lot of bets with bad hands (from middle pair to absolute nothing) postflop.

[ QUOTE ]
I think you need to do less donking and fancy checkraising and more calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I posted these hands for a reason, and it wasn't because I have a Cinnamon Wind-esque "look at me and how awesome these plays are" complex. It's because of all the hands in that session, these were the ones that were likely played sub-optimally. I have an idea what I'd have changed in each hand, but I'm posting to see if others agree. Point being, just because I played these three hands this way doesn't mean I always play them this way, it doesn't mean I think they were played well, and it doesn't mean that I was checkraising and donkbetting every hand.

(FWIW, I think the worst street of the three hands is the J7o preflop -- I think the rest is sub-optimal but not exactly "retarded.")

Paxosmotic · #5 10-12-2005, 07:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Because NL Soldier is in the BB. I should have included that. Also, FWIW, these people didn't seem like they were overdefending blinds/buttons, they were just putting in a lot of bets with bad hands (from middle pair to absolute nothing) postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is precisely the opposite of what you're looking for. If you're going to open with a marginal hand, your profit comes from winning the most from terrible opponents while losing the least. NL Soldier is going to be at least as comfortable as you are in this situation, and probably has the advantage since it's 'his' game. You're very unlikely to pick up the blinds from this far away, and regardless, you're either going to be out of position with a weak hand against a bad opponent, or in position with a weak hand against a good one. We don't have too great an advantage no matter how you slice it.

TheHip41 · #6 10-12-2005, 08:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (5.50 SB) 3, 6, 4 (2 players)
Hero bets, Main Fish raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, Main Fish bets, Hero raises, Main Fish calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, FWIW, these people didn't seem like they were overdefending blinds/buttons, they were just putting in a lot of bets with bad hands (from middle pair to absolute nothing) postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The irony is almost unthinkable.

When in Rome I guess.

thesharpie · #7 10-12-2005, 08:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
(FWIW, I think the worst street of the three hands is the J7o preflop -- I think the rest is sub-optimal but not exactly "retarded.")

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the worse is the 2nd hand on the turn, the donk doesn't accomplish anything. I'm either check calling down or folding. If you're donking and calling down against a raise you definitely should be just check calling down.

The first hand I don't dig the turn checkraise unless this guy is predictable and won't bluff/semi bluff 3 bet and also won't bluff a hand you're beating on the river if you just calldown. Against this guy with the read I just call down and let him throw his money away.

Although I'd fold it preflop, the J7o hand isn't that bad, it's probably only marginally unprofitable (the PF call) and I like postflop play.

SippinSoma · #8 10-12-2005, 10:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]

(FWIW, I think the worst street of the three hands is the J7o preflop -- I think the rest is sub-optimal but not exactly "retarded.")

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering the aggression at these levels, I would consider your plays far from retarded.

How did the stab go?

brettbrettr · #9 10-12-2005, 10:10 AM

K4 I wouldn't bother pre-flop. Post-flop the turn seems close to a call but the river looks good.

I'm not sure I understand your turn bet with the queens.

Hand 3 looks good post-flop.

#10 10-12-2005, 01:52 PM

With the QQ, there's not much that she could be betting on the flop w/o a K, as it is a relatively drawless board. I think you should 3-bet this flop, and then decide whether or not you want to call her down. The preflop re-raise would typically indicate AK, KQ or any PP for isolation. You would be WA/WB against the typically raising range in that spot, so take that line. I really don't understand your turn bet on the QQ hand.