10-10 UTG

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand. Aggressive players-- those more likely to play marginal hands-- are going to scare you off your strong ones?

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps this is a good starting point for understanding.

TT UTG in full table, 10-player, no limit hold 'em is not, and I repeat NOT, a strong hand!

With any strong, tricky, aggressive players to your immediate left or right, TT UTG is a marginal holding at best.

It is a middle pair, period. In UTG, it is a middle pair out of position. Further, in the pre-flop phase, every player at the table still has yet to act.

Over-committing in these situations is not that different than throwing live chips after dead chips on the river.

Let's say you open raise with your TT UTG? What hands are likely to cold call? Or reraise? Let me tell you, it ain't pretty. Bigger pairs, big overcards/connectors often suited. The point is, you typically won't get action from lesser hands or those with worse than a 3-2 chance to outflop you. Maybe you are already drawing to 2 outs and just don't know it yet.

The whole point is with TT or JJ or other middle pair, you have to play them strong or not play them at all. If you play them strong, then you risk throwing a lot of live chips at a hand that could very easily make them dead chips. Is this really a desirable scenario? I think not.

{{Short-handed is a whole different matter altogether. These comments are directed at full table games.}}

If you disagree with everything I wrote, then either I've got a lot to learn or you do (or more likely both, isn't that the whole point of this forum?). Want to compare track records?

[nath]

OK, I read your post. It sounds like a good, solid strategy-- for cash games with fairly deep stacks.

As the stakes increase in tournament poker, you simply *must* take more chances. You don't have the luxury of waiting for premium hands. As I wrote in my last post, as your stack shrinks relative to the blinds, you must be willing to push increasingly thin edges. OP's post posited a scenario of 100/200/25 stakes and a 5700 chip stack. At a 10-handed table, it's costing him 550 to see a round-- that's an M just over 10. Under these circumstances, he cannot afford to pass a hand as good as a pair of tens. You say "play them strongly or not at all"; I say that circumstances dictate that this must be played strongly, if you're playing to win the tournament, and not just hang out as long as possible.
Earlier in the tournament you can play more conservatively, but now is the time to attack.

[ QUOTE ]
If you disagree with everything I wrote, then either I've got a lot to learn or you do (or more likely both, isn't that the whole point of this forum?). Want to compare track records?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I've been having a good run at the MTTs lately but I won't deny I have lots to learn. (Especially about ring games, but I know my MTT play is going to need improvement whenever it's time to make the next step up, too.)

[fnurt]

Yeah, I definitely agree with nath here. Geez, if there are strong, tricky players to my left, I'm out of position against them on EVERY hand. Do I have to wait for AA/KK before I can play a hand of poker against them?

[ QUOTE ]
Under these circumstances, he cannot afford to pass a hand as good as a pair of tens.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is it about plain english???

TT UTG at full table no limit is not a good hand.

At best, it is an average hand against average competition. At worst, it is a marginal if not unplayable hand against tough competition.

In the player's scenario, an M of 10 or whatever HoH or new age poker lingo you want to throw at it, the player is in no immediate danger of getting blinded out. He has at least 5 orbits of chips left, even if he gets dealt nothing but 72o for the next 30 minutes.

The point is most players will lose more money with TT UTG in this situation than they will make.

One pretty much has to push or fold. The problem is that the only hands that will stay with you are ones that have you beat, or have a more than decent chance of beating you.

If you want to put your tournament life on a middle pair UTG full table, then so be it. Personally, it's not my idea of a good time.

However, I will leave you with these queries. Do you believe that TT UTG is always worth playing in any full table scenario? If yes, then never mind, no point in going further with this discussion. If no, then under which circumstances in your mind has TT UTG now gone from a strong hand to not playable?

[ QUOTE ]
Do I have to wait for AA/KK before I can play a hand of poker against them?

[/ QUOTE ]

The waiting game is not the point. The point is do you want to engage in what probably amounts life or death tactics against possibly better players, with a marginal hand like a middle pair?

It's not the initial holding that is so bad per se. It is after all the 5th best possible starting hand. The problem gets down to these two key points:

1) TT is easily beaten by any number of overcards on the flop, whereas the TT really only has two ways to improve, namely the other two tens.

2) From pre-flop to post-flop, against a tricky or better player, it is very difficult to know if you are ahead or behind. Not knowing your status may seem relatively minor, but what it leads to is not knowing how far your can go with your hand BEFORE YOU ARE IN TOO DEEP.

Here's a couple of simple cases in point:

First: You raise with TT UTG. A strong tricky player who thinks he can outplay you, cold calls with something like QJs. Then the flop comes something like AKx of the same suit as the QJs, KJx or even Jxx. Your tens are virtually unplayable against the first two, and only slightly less against the third, unless you choose to essentially make a bluff all-in. The only chance you have at the pot is on an all in bluff. Sorry but this isn't a winning strategy for the typical online event.

{This is not to say that I suggest not bluffing, because a well placed bluff is essential to a winning strategy. I would just be looking for better places to bluff than this one.}

Second: You raise with your TT UTG, only this time the player cold calls or goes over the top with a much stronger hand, like AKs or a bigger pair. Are you a good enough player to let go here? Or are you willing to risk your tournament life on possible 2-outer drawing from way behind, or at best a small favorite?

------------

Here's another thought. What if the hand becomes multiway rather than head-up? Don't your tens look even worse?

In the second of the previous examples, let's say you are head up TT v AKs. Ok, you are a modest favorite 1.2-1.

Now let's say there is a third player involved. If this player happens to have a bigger pair, then your tens are third place in a 3-horse race, not where you want to be with all your chips at risk.

Even if the third player happens to have a relatively meager holding like QJs, then guess what? You are still in third place in a 3-horse race.

In short, when you get in for most or all of your chips with TT UTG, the only hands that run with you are hands that can have you beat, or hands that can beat you easily on the draw. Plus these bigger hands are hurting if not completely nullifying your little extra outs like straights and flushes, leaving you with essentially two ways to improve (and even those may not be enough).

So like I said, if this high risk style is the way you always choose to play for your tournament life, then be my guest. Hope I see you on the cyber-felt.

This is not to say that I would never play TT UTG. If I haven't been playing much of anything, especially from UTG, then it is likely that a UTG raise might get a wide berth from other EP/MP hands. On the other hand, if I've been playing loosely a lot from UTG, and gotten stuck showing down a hand like 88 or QJs at the river, then my TT UTG looks even worse and players might be firing back with all kinds of different hands.

Of if it is an early round of the typical online game where min raises are a fraction of total stack, then I have no problem with splashing around a bit with TT here.

But frankly, in middle to latter stages of a tournament, if I'm going to play a bit loose and aggressive UTG (which is essentially what one does with a TT UTG "power" move), then I would rather do it with a hand that has more ways to improve, is easier to tell if I've improved to the lead, and most importantly, easier to get rid of if the flop misses me. If I'm going to playing loose aggressive UTG, then I'd much rather have a hand like KQs, QJs, JTs.

[Melchiades]

I'm with nath here. TT looks pretty good to me UTG with a M of 10. I'm not saying I will never lay it down, but I will raise and hope to take the blinds most of the time, if I'm reraised I'll have a decision to make.

[Brad F.]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I definitely agree with nath here. Geez, if there are strong, tricky players to my left, I'm out of position against them on EVERY hand. Do I have to wait for AA/KK before I can play a hand of poker against them?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good discussion folks.

First of all, whoever said 10-10 is a made hand, that's silly. 10-10 is a pocket pair yes, but no hand is made until the river is shown.

I don't want you all to think I'm a weak-tightie, because I'm not. I was just looking over my PT data, 1010 is not a winner for me. I looked at some of my past hand histories, and twice I got busted, once in lever 5 and once in level 6 by calling a reraise and getting busted by either an overpair or overcards.

In general I'd rather have 8-9 suited in this spot because it's a much easier hand to play out of position, plus the callers don't give me credit for a suited connector.

What Spee just said about what other hands I've been playing from UTG is a good point. I raise 3x the BB UTG at most levels with KQ through 8-9 suited, and AK, AQ, AA, KK, QQ. So although I don't raise a ton UTG, players might adapt differently to me if I win or lose a pot with 8-9 suited UTG.

Wow Spee, after rereading your post I wonder if you aren't me in disguise.

All the arguments about 'waiting for a big hand' aren't really pertaining to the question. I'm just starting to ponder how to play 10-10 OOP, because it seems to get me in trouble.

Alright, so I actually had a hand that sprung this discussion, with the exact blind/ante situation which I mentioned before.

Blinds 100/200/a25

Hero has 5700
MP2 has ~4500
CO hs ~7100

Cutoff hasn't been out of line. He's been calling in late position with low pocket pairs, hit a set twice and slowplayed them into big pots at the river.

MP2 hasn't done anything spectacular. Recently doubled up with AKs when he reraised all-in against UTG=2 raiser who had KK.

Anyway, the hand....

Hero has 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] UTG. (Not suited)

Hero raises to 600. MP2 calls. CO calls.

Flop (T2325): J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Looks like a pretty safe flop for me, but am weary of the Jack.

How do we play from here?

Brad

[dknightx]

continuation bet ... i say 1200

[locutus2002]

I'd lead for T1600.

If I'm reraised my action is going to be very player dependent; Hero will be getting ~3.5:1 to call the rest of his chips.

[fnurt]

You don't seem to understand that the stacks are not deep here. You act as if we will be confronted with difficult decision after difficult decision, when the reality is that there's not going to be much room to play around after the flop. You act as if it is trivial for someone to call an UTG raise with QJs, an easily dominated hand, and even more trivial for them to take the pot away from you when the flop comes AKx, because of course, they will magically know that an UTG raiser missed that flop.

The goal is to build a big stack. You want to provoke the action BEFORE your stack gets short and you're barely hanging on. Your advice is great for cash games with deep stacks, pretty good for surviving in a tournament and squeaking into the money, not so good for winning a tournament.