Four-handed vs. a Grandmaster

The Gift Of Gab · #1 04-05-2003, 06:36 PM

Though this 15-30 game had recently collapsed to 4-handed, the aggression of the game hadn't been brought up to speed and the bluff/semi-bluff frequency seemed low. In other words, I still believed these people.

I have 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] in the SB. UTG raises. He is an excellent player in a full game, and presumably strong shorthanded. Incidentally, he's a former US chess champion and props at the club where this took place, so let's call him GM. Bonus points for identifying him. I've never played short with him before, and I'm not sure what he thinks of me. One fold, and I reraise. The reason for the game's existence folds in the BB and GM calls.

Flop 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]

I bet, GM raises, I call.

Turn 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] - 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]

I check, he bets, and I call.

River 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] - 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] - A [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]

I bet. Comments?

Ray Zee · #2 04-05-2003, 11:34 PM

thats a fine play. it usually works if he doesnt have an ace or a heart. but i wouldnt have reraised him before the flop. that was a losing play.

Phat Mack · #3 04-06-2003, 03:33 PM

but i wouldnt have reraised him before the flop. that was a losing play.

A losing play because you want another caller?

Ray Zee · #4 04-06-2003, 07:59 PM

no, he is a better player and he opened under the gun. so why would you want to jam it up with a pair against two overcards or such and gamble out of position with a good player.

The Gift Of Gab · #5 04-06-2003, 08:44 PM

Ray,

Thanks for the response. I agree that he's a better player than I and likely has overcards or a larger pair, though things like 66 or A5s aren't out of the question. I reraised because I thought my hand would play much better heads-up and because I thought I could get him to fold incorrectly on the flop if he had, say, KJ on an Axx flop or 99 on a AKx flop, etc. Would this be a clear reraise if he opened on the button? He later told me he had 88 or TT and I sort of almost believe him, so I did put in a lot of money as a huge dog and had to weasel my way out. Since I wasn't good enough to get away from it early did I just answer my own question, or is there more I'm not seeing here? Gracias.

Ray Zee · #6 04-07-2003, 03:32 AM

the problem with your scenario is that against a good player you are not going to get him to fold easily for just a flop bet or raise, just because you reraised before the flop. he is more likely to fool around with you since the pot is bigger than if you smoothed called. but i too would rather play that hand headup. so you have to consider what the bb will likely do.

Hawkeye27 · #7 04-07-2003, 02:59 PM

G

PokerPrince · #8 04-10-2003, 06:08 AM

Pretty cool move. I dig it. By the way, don't listen to Ray, it's not a poor move to reraise those 7's. You're playing in an extremely short game of four players. It's not time to sit back and play sissy poker. There are MANY benifits to reraising here, one being that you won't be labelled as someone who only repumps it with premium holdings. Another being that there is a strong possibility you hold the best hand. Another being you MAY push him off a better hand like 99 if the flop comes a tad scary like A,Q,6 and you bet out.

PokerPrince

nykenny · #9 04-11-2003, 05:13 PM

is this in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn? if so, then you are talking about Jacob who is indeed one of the best holdem player in brooklyn today... I would play your hand similarly, except i am likely to give out a tell when i make the final bet on river. and he'd call me down.

i don't like to play with him short handed, and i hate to be in a pot heads up with him.

by the way, who are you?

take care

matt_d · #10 04-25-2003, 08:59 PM

Ray - would you fold in "Grandmaster"'s position with more than 7 BB in the pot? IMO if it's just a random heart on the river then it's a clear call, so the key question is whether "Gab" definitely has an Ace. Given that it was a 4 handed game, I think he could have been reraising preflop with a pair or high cards without an ace. Therefore there's a fair chance that the river bet is a bluff (especially since the river card is so scary), and I would call it.

IMO the bluff makes sense in a full game, but with only 4 players it is more marginal against a strong opponent.

Gab - I don't agree with reraising the pair of 7s. You say that you still "believed these people", plus the opponent is a strong player who has represented strength UTG. So you are quite likely to be in a situation where you are either totally dominated by a higher pair, or only a slight favourite against overcards. 77 is likely to have 2 overcards on the flop, making it difficult to extract value if you are ahead, and easy to lose lots (either by calling if he has a pair, or getting bluffed out).

The fact is you got a very good flop (only 7xx or 3 lower cards would be better) and you still had a tough time - imagine how much worse shape you would be in with a less favourable flop.

I'm interested in your play after the flop. When he raised your flop bet (after seeing you bet strong preflop), what did you put him on? And what was your reasoning for checking and calling on the turn? Personally I would have put him on a higher pair with his flop raise, and especially when he bets the turn. With only 2 outs (and a potential bluff if an Ah hits) I would fold.

Out of interest, what did he do on the river?

PokerPrince - I'm not sure I agree with what you say:

"There are MANY benifits to reraising here, one being that you won't be labelled as someone who only repumps it with premium holdings."

But you can achieve this with less cost and more benefit by reraising 77, KQ and the like when you are in good position, rather than first to act.

"Another being that there is a strong possibility you hold the best hand."

True, but as I claimed above, being strongest going into the flop doesn't mean you are in the best situation. The key is how much are you going to win if you have the best hand post-flop, versus how much you are going to lose if you don't.

"Another being you MAY push him off a better hand like 99 if the flop comes a tad scary like A,Q,6 and you bet out."

I disagree - a flop bet is almost meaningless and a good player will usually at least call, making you bet again if you want to steal the hand. So either you have to bluff twice, or let him get a free card on the turn and display weakness.