Live vs. online slowplay issue

[jat850]

This is my first post so feel free to give me pointers so that I cause more roar than snore. I started playing 2/4 live at Commerce and ocassionally LV this year. I do not play online for $. I have read posts and the "book" position on slowplay. Essentially without clears reads, bet to grow your pot even if you lose a player or two.

The purpose of this post is to explore the limits of reading players for the purpose of a good slowplay. Any insight into live versus online slowplay timing would be appreciated also.

The two hands of slowplay have the same cast of characters, but their positions vary:

Hand one: Hero is SB with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Villain is UTG is a LAG. I've played him before. If he senses weakeness, he'll bet out on very little from early positions to grab control and see if he can force others out. He can also go postal. (Not too uncommon at Commerce.) EP1 & 2 are Grandma's who NEVER raise ANYTHING until the river. I do not have much on the other players. 9 seats.

Preflop: UTG bets, EP1 calls, EP2 calls, 3 folds, Button calls, SB completes and BB checks. 6 players (4.5 SB)

Flop: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Choice point, do I bet out, checkraise, or slowplay? I choose to slowplay because I felt I could count on Villian to bet and I wanted to get a feel for whether the other 9 was out there. If it was, I would be the kickee with my 4 kicker.

SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, EP1 folds, EP2 calls, Button calls, SB calls and BB folds. 4 players (8.5 SB) The presense of three players + 1 to act led me to decide to just call, and not check raise. Should I reconsider and if so why?

Turn: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB checks, UTG bets, EP1 folds, Button calls, and SB calls. 3 players. (7.25 BB)

River: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG bets, Button folds, SB raises, UTG calls. (11.25BB) His two pair, K9's lose to my set, but did I cost myself $? And is online any different?

Second hand is easier because of the reasons behind the slowplay choice that are specific to live play. Same cast of characters two orbits later except this time I am the Button and the Villian is BB.

I've got Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

UTG bets, EP1 calls, EP2 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes and BB checks. 7 players (5.5 SB)

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB checks, BB bets, EP1 calls, EP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds. 5 players (10.5SB)

Turn: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

It was a "you had to be there" live moment. BB jaw drops when he sees the club. He and the 2 Grandma's are visibly slow to act.

BB checks, EP1 checks, EP2 checks, CO checks, and I decide to check. I felt that if I used my position, I would take the pot down right then without any more money coming in.

River: J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Rejuvenated by the check around, BB bets out, EP1 calls, EP2 folds, CO calls, and Button raises (getting me "the look" from BB!) he calls, EP1 calls, and CO folds. (17.5 BB)

I hope that these two hands provide some contrast for a discussion about when it is right and when isn't it right to slowplay. Any insight into online vs. line analysis would be appreciated. Also, feel free to tell me whether I wasted your time or raised an issue worth reviewing while providing a context for that discussion. Thanks all.

[bobbyi]

First hand: I would fold preflop. On the flop, I would try to check-raise and trap everyone for two bets right here (since you now UTG is LAG and will bet). Don't worry too much about being outkicked. With the K out there, even if the case 9 is out, kickers often won't play. These really aren't "live vs. online" issues as much as they are issues about knowing your opponents. It is certainly possible online to (for example) know that someone is a LAG and you need to play accordingly.

Second Hand: Raise the flop with all the people in there and you having such a strong draw. Definitely bet the turn. Your tell on BB is a silly reason to check. Even if you knew she was afraid of the flush and was going to fold, there are other people in there to pay you off, and she might not pay off the river anyway. There is no reason to think that you won't get action if you bet. People will bet lots of stuff on the button when everyone checks to you. There is no reason for them to put you on the flush.

Overall, it sounds like you are thinking critically about your plays and considering your opponents. That is very important and will take you far. However, I think some of the specific plays you made were not so great.