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  #1  
Old 07-14-2005, 12:09 PM
11t 11t is offline
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Default AK flop play

Does anybody slowdown after the check-raise?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) converter

CO (t1810)
Button (t1490)
SB (t1480)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1440)
Hero (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
MP3 (t1280)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t80</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB calls t70, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t180) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t120</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t240</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1420</font>
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  #2  
Old 07-14-2005, 12:12 PM
wiggs73 wiggs73 is offline
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Default Re: AK flop play

with the t1500 starting stacks, you can actually do something besides push or fold. I know playing actual poker is a dreaded thought on this forum, but I'd call and see how the hand develops on later streets. You do have way too good of a hand to fold though.
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  #3  
Old 07-14-2005, 12:17 PM
mlagoo mlagoo is offline
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Default Re: AK flop play

[ QUOTE ]
with the t1500 starting stacks, you can actually do something besides push or fold. I know playing actual poker is a dreaded thought on this forum, but I'd call and see how the hand develops on later streets. You do have way too good of a hand to fold though.

[/ QUOTE ]

the thing is, i think betting out and calling a checkraise screams "i have a draw." which makes it less likely for you to get paid off if you do hit it.

I think you are at worst a 50/50 shot here (I don't think I buy him checkraising here with a set), and with your FE, I think it's worth a push. I like this line.
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  #4  
Old 07-14-2005, 12:17 PM
adanthar adanthar is offline
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Default Re: AK flop play

Calling sucks. You're gonna face a big bet on the turn and miss over 2 out of 3 of them.

I'd make it 700 and push any turn. I think you have (slightly) more FE that way than with an outright push.
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  #5  
Old 07-14-2005, 01:33 PM
wiggs73 wiggs73 is offline
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Default Re: AK flop play

[ QUOTE ]
Calling sucks. You're gonna face a big bet on the turn and miss over 2 out of 3 of them.

I'd make it 700 and push any turn. I think you have (slightly) more FE that way than with an outright push.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're one of the posters on here whose advice I greatly respect. But I'm not so sure I agree with you on this one.

First off, let's assume that hero is up against a set or a straight. He needs to hit the flush to win, and let's go ahead and assume that he needs to hit it on the turn since he will likely be driven out by a huge bet from villain if a non-flush card hits. And just for the sake of argument, let's say villain won't give him any more action if a flush card hits, so there are no implied odds. Hero does have the pot odds to just call (getting 4.5:1 on a 4:1 shot). If villain has an overpair or is bluffing, then we can count the Ace and King as outs too so his odds become even better. And if you factor in implied odds plus the chance that he won't face too large of a bet to stay around on the turn if he misses, the numbers become even better. Clearly, calling is +EV. I don't know if it is as +EV as raising, but I do think calling is a viable option here. Whether it is the prefered option is a matter of opinion I guess, but I don't think that it sucks.
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  #6  
Old 07-14-2005, 01:37 PM
Meatmaw Meatmaw is offline
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Default Re: AK flop play

I've been reading a recent thread regarding playing AK cheaply PF in the early levels, and I tried this to some extent last night at the Party $55s and it felt terrible. What do people think of this? I believe the thinking was that:

a) you don't want to commit a lot of chips with AK in early levels and go up against a PP.
b) you'll be transmitting your hand with the raise and get no action when an A/K hits on the flop after your raise.

My problem with this is:
a) It seems quite common (at least more than I expected) for the people who actually push all in after a raise/reraise during early levels to be the fish bluffing with JT or AJ.
b) People don't seem to play that aggressively anyway when an A/K flops once you call/raise them.

Any other points or thoughts on this? I was typically in the habit of, when considering an all-in, going strongly by the pot odds, but the 'limp in' and passive approach has some sense and has thrown me for a loop.
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  #7  
Old 07-14-2005, 01:54 PM
mlagoo mlagoo is offline
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Default Re: AK flop play

[ QUOTE ]
Calling sucks. You're gonna face a big bet on the turn and miss over 2 out of 3 of them.

I'd make it 700 and push any turn. I think you have (slightly) more FE that way than with an outright push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can get into this line too. I considered in my first post in this thread recommending a raise to something like 7-800, but decided against it because I thought, ultimately, it was pointless -- I guess I'm not sure that we have more fold equity on the turn with a smaller bet than on the flop with the overbet.

But it's close. I think in order of preference, I like pushing, then raising, then calling, and folding really isn't an option here.
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  #8  
Old 07-14-2005, 02:15 PM
sng-sam sng-sam is offline
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Default Re: AK flop play

I have villan on an over pair 99 10 10 or JJ that means I have a monster draw but a draw nonetheless. I think that I call here (read:weak/tight) and save chips . I play at both stars and party and I can tell you that although 1500 is lot you lose fold equity faster when you take a hit becuase everyone thinks they have so many chips to spare.

SAM
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  #9  
Old 07-14-2005, 02:22 PM
durron597 durron597 is offline
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Default Re: AK flop play

[ QUOTE ]
Calling sucks. You're gonna face a big bet on the turn and miss over 2 out of 3 of them.

I'd make it 700 and push any turn. I think you have (slightly) more FE that way than with an outright push.

[/ QUOTE ]
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  #10  
Old 07-15-2005, 01:17 AM
adanthar adanthar is offline
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Default Re: AK flop play

[ QUOTE ]
First off, let's assume that hero is up against a set or a straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't play on PS much, but at Party, this is very, very unlikely to be a set. If he has a straight, good for him. You've got between 4-5 clean overcard outs on average.

[ QUOTE ]
If villain has an overpair or is bluffing, then we can count the Ace and King as outs too so his odds become even better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes we can, which is why it's going to suck a lot when you get pushed off this hand roughly 2/3 of the time (oh, you're also not getting paid when an ace or king turns and 99 shuts down, so 4-5 of these outs aren't worth very much.)

[ QUOTE ]
And if you factor in implied odds plus the chance that he won't face too large of a bet to stay around on the turn if he misses, the numbers become even better. Clearly, calling is +EV. I don't know if it is as +EV as raising, but I do think calling is a viable option here. Whether it is the prefered option is a matter of opinion I guess, but I don't think that it sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing preflop is +EV, too, but it still sucks.

Don't get me wrong, BTW, I understand what you're talking about and partially agree, but his range doesn't support calling at all. Actually, I may very well be wrong because I don't play on PS and if this is a set obviously calling is better. At Party, it's by and large not.
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