7CS: Why are straight draws bad?

[MCS]

Hello,

I am totally new to 7CS. When I say "new," I'm talking "never played it for money." I do play holdem decently, and I have a reasonable understanding of poker theory as well as a very strong mathematics background.

Anyway, my question is: Why are straight draws so bad?

I've read things suggesting that many good players hate them and often won't play for a straight at all. I'm just curious as to the logic. Why are they so dangerous?

Thanks for the help.

[Dynasty]

The problem with medium and small straight draws such as 8c7h6s or 5d4c3h is that they only have one practical way to win a hand- by making the straight. It is unlikely that either of those two hands will win by making another hand such as two-pair.

Compare that to flush draws such as Kh7h4h or Qc8c2c. Those hands can win by making their flushes. But, they can also win by making a two-pair hand such as Kings-up or Queens-up. Flush draws with big cards in them have the added pair making value to them which medium and small straight draws don't have.

[MCS]

Thanks for the reply. I thought of that problem with the small and medium straights, and was very proud of myself after doing so [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

But, for example, West says in his book that "[he] know[s] professionals who won't play ANY straights."

I guess if he counts things like KdQhJc as "overcards," it makes sense. Otherwise, it seems like you still have the possibility of pairing high cards (as with the flush draw).

[Ray Zee]

they arent so bad, in fact they are quite good. the pro's that dont play them are just rocks. you just have to play them in the right spots like any other hand. they do about like a flush draw does. both are about 2 to 1 dog to an overpair headup. so you need to be live and in control. you also need to know when to give up with these hands and when to push them. with every hand you can always find a better one but that isnt what its all about. its taking each hand independently and making money with the ones that you can. and small straight draws can make you money.

[Andy B]

I suspect that the "professionals" West is talking about supplement their retirement income by playing in a $1-5 game with no ante and scratching out a couple of dollars an hour. Dynasty and Ray have made some good points here. I wouldn't expect any less of them.

It is my belief that the overwhelming majority of stud players lose money on straight draws, and that a significant percentage of the money that losing players lose is lost by playing straight draws badly. I can think of specific players I know who lose significant amounts of money (for the stakes they play), and I believe that more than half of their losses come from chasing straights when the situation doesn't warrant it.

There is a paradox at work here. Straights are drawing hands, so you want multiple opponents in to pay you off if you make your hand. Unfortunately, the more players you have in, the less likely it is that your straight will be good, even if you make it. This is a tough balancing act. And straights are hard to make.

The flush draw is much better. There aren't any specific cards you have to catch, it's easier to make a flush, and there is a better chance that your flush will hold up if you make it. While I haven't played the game much lately, I was extremely successful at stud $2/4 through $6/12 limits, and a large portion of my profits came from getting a lot of money in with live flush draws. I saved a lot of money by getting away from straight draws quickly if they didn't develop.

As Dynasty indicated, all straight draws are not created equal. High straight draws are much better than medium and small straight draws (I usually muck 543 and 654 for the bring-in). The extra value of a hand like KQJ comes from the fact that pairing one of your big cards may help make you a winning hand. If you can get it heads-up with a guy who has something like a pair of Eights, you're in decent shape. You've got three overcards you can pair, and you can still make the straight. If you're in a game where five people are seeing the river every hand, though, you're not likely to win by making Kings or Kings-up; you've got to make that straight.

I hate straight draws less than I used to, because I play a lot of stud/8. There, small straight draws are much better than most flush draws. I still can't bring myself to fold a lot of three-flushes that I probably should, though.

[Mason Malmuth]

"But, they can also win by making a two-pair hand such as Kings-up or Queens-up."

If yout high card is an overcard, they can also win by just making a pair. That's why it is frequently correct to reraise with these hands. See SCSFAP for more discussion.

MM

[MCS]

Hi,

Thanks again for the responses. Andy, I have a couple of questions about something you said.

"There aren't any specific cards you have to catch, it's easier to make a flush..."

How do you mean that there are no specific cards? It seems that there are specific cards which help a straight draw, and specific cards that help a flush draw. I am unclear on how a flush doesn't require specific cards while a straight does.

Also, how is a flush easier to make? Surely there aren't more seven card hands that make a flush than a straight. Otherwise, I claim I have found a significant flaw in the standard hand rankings [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

One thing I was thinking is that a small flush draw can become a big flush by catching a high card of the correct suit, but a small straight draw can never turn into a big straight. Not sure how significant or clever that is.

Again, thanks to everyone for the help. You are all far better players than I. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[Andy B]

Let's say you start with 876. If you catch a 4, that's help, but you must specifically catch a 5 to make your straight. If you're playing a flush draw, you never have that kind of scenario.

The ranking of poker hands is determined by what the most difficult hand to make is when five cards are dealt. I'm actually not sure if it is easier to make a straight or not if you always stay in for all seven cards; I suspect that it is. What I meant was that it's easier to convert a three-flush into a flush, and it's easier to convert a four-flush into a flush. If you have a four-flush, there are nine cards you can catch to make your hand, but there are only eight cards you can catch to make your hand if you have an open-ended straight draw.

There isn't a whole lot of difference between an Ace-high flush and a Seven-high flush. If you make a flush, it should be good, and if it does lose, it could be to a full house, in which case the rank of your cards don't matter. If you are drawing to a small flush, and you think your opponent has a higher flush made, you probably should go out. If your opponent has a Queen-high flush made, you should not draw hoping to catch the Ace or King of your suit. Note that unless the high cards of your opponent's suit have shown, there is always the chance that he has them in the hole.

[MCS]

Thanks, I understand what you mean now. Seems like there would be plenty of "straight draws," if we define a "straight draw" as a four-card hand which can make a straight given the proper fifth card. But "straights" as a group are hindered by the fact that you can wind up drawing to a gutshot, which has the potential to cost you money if you can't get away from it.

Having played primarily holdem, I'm used to there being a significant difference in an A-high flush and a 7-high flush. Guess that's one of the adjustments I'll have to make.

I think Mason had an essay on why good holdem players struggle at first with stud (e.g., that it is often correct to raise with a non-best hand to knock others out), but now I can't find it again.