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  #61  
Old 12-21-2005, 11:03 AM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: Well Lookee Here! BLUFFThis! is wrong

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As I've said elsewhere, this position is far more dangerous to the nation than terrorism.

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These are temporary measures driven by the exigencies of war.
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  #62  
Old 12-21-2005, 11:09 AM
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Default Re: Well Lookee Here! BLUFFThis! is wrong

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As I've said elsewhere, this position is far more dangerous to the nation than terrorism.

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These are temporary measures driven by the exigencies of war.

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Please. Surely we do not need to go though history to see the variety of oppresive measures that have been so justified.
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  #63  
Old 12-21-2005, 01:49 PM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: Well Lookee Here! BLUFFThis! is wrong

Do you remember in the film The Untouchables where Sean Connery's character asked Costner's character, "What are you willing do do?", and Costner/Ness responded, "All that the law allows". And then Connery asked, "And then what?".

The terrorists have that determination and so should we as far as making temporary exceptions regarding some personal liberties. If we're not willing to do that then either we will fail to defeat them or the cost will be much higher in american lives if we do succeed.

The positions of those such as yourself who see dictatorship looming when we make reasonable sacrifices with restrictions on our liberties during wartime are what makes terrorists and rogue nations think we are weak and that they can defeat us by dragging out a conflict and sapping our political will.

And the sacrifices such as I have adovcated here being correct, are what helps save the lives of our soldiers and intelligence agents in the field. They're doing their duty and we need to do ours to them.
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  #64  
Old 12-21-2005, 08:43 PM
MMMMMM MMMMMM is offline
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Default Re: Well Lookee Here! BLUFFThis! is wrong

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The terrorists have that determination and so should we as far as making temporary exceptions regarding some personal liberties. If we're not willing to do that then either we will fail to defeat them or the cost will be much higher in american lives if we do succeed.

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True; my take however is that we still need to be very careful as to what liberties or rights are reduced or suspended--especially for U.S. citizens. Foreigners who are just visiting and possibly under suspicion should have less rights to protection from search and/or seizure, for instance.
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  #65  
Old 12-21-2005, 08:52 PM
ACPlayer ACPlayer is offline
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Default Re: Well Lookee Here! BLUFFThis! is wrong

All men (and women) are created equal.

Sanguinely turning a blind eye to search and seizure of foreign men on our soil is a bad idea and shows a lack of understanding of Liberties. Our courts should afford them the same rights as those given to citizen -- in the matter of criminal proceedings. They obviously have less than equal secondary rights -- like no welfare or immigration rights etc. The fundamental human rights should be the same.
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  #66  
Old 12-21-2005, 08:59 PM
AceHigh AceHigh is offline
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Default Re: The disgraceful right-wing distortion on the domestic spying issue

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If you google for and read some more in depth on this issue, you will find that although it is true that the secret court is fairly speedy in its mostly rubber stamp approvals once the issue has been heard, that it nonetheless is very time consuming to prepare the matter for the court and get it on the docket and heard. That shows that there is in fact an issue of urgency in many of these matters that is hampered by the entire process.

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That doesn't have anything to do with whether the wiretaps are legal or not. There is a process in place to legally place the wiretaps and the President is delibrately ignoring it and the law.

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That process must not hamper or prevent operational necessities which occasionally require speedy action. The process is not > than our safety from terrorists when those operational necessities do not involve impinging on liberties on a large scale.

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I really doubt the need for speedy action. None of the 9/11 hijackers were U.S. citizens and they were in the country for months or years without being detected. But your point is taken, that's what Pres. is argueing.

Does anybody think, in this day and age of encryption codes that no government can crack, that al-quayda is going to openly transmit its plans via phones, when they can just email them in unbreakable code?

Surely the terrorists are aware of wiretaps and the vulnerability of phone conversations vs. the invulnerability of modern encryption codes.
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  #67  
Old 12-21-2005, 09:19 PM
MMMMMM MMMMMM is offline
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Default Re: Well Lookee Here! BLUFFThis! is wrong

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Sanguinely turning a blind eye to search and seizure of foreign men on our soil is a bad idea and shows a lack of understanding of Liberties.

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I'm not suggesting "turning a blind eye"; rather, only that they should have somewhat less such protection than U.S. citizens on our soil. After all, they are GUESTS, not citizens. They are here at our pleasure and by our grace. If they are suspected of nebulous wrongdoing, they should quickly be kicked out--just as you would ask a bad dinner guest to leave your house. If they are suspected of serious criminal mischief, of the most serious kind (jeopardizing our lives and liberties through terrorist activities) they should be investigated and possibly detained. In fact, we should make it an openly known policy that all foreign visitors who fall under suspicion of terrorist activity may be so investigated.

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Our courts should afford them the same rights as those given to citizen -- in the matter of criminal proceedings. They obviously have less than equal secondary rights -- like no welfare or immigration rights etc. The fundamental human rights should be the same.

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Yes, the HUMAN rights should be the same. But should foreigners on our soil not be eavesdropped upon if suspected of terrorist activity? I think they should be. We should also apprise them up front of that possibility: so if they don't like it, they don't have to come here. That ought to be fair enough by any standard.
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  #68  
Old 12-21-2005, 09:51 PM
Roybert Roybert is offline
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Default Re: Well Lookee Here! BLUFFThis! is wrong

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Yes, and once the terrorists are able to pull off a successful operation, the same people that helped them not be detected by US authorities will blame Bush for it.



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Yep, and the Limbaughs and Hannitys and Cheneys and Roves and Coulters and Savages and Delays and Humes and Barneses wouldn't dare blame the Democrats for trying to stop the Republican Congress from giving their President unchecked power to steal our civil liberties WHEN this attack happens, will they?

Maybe THEN we can get our martial law!

The Democrats are being stupid. Not for their ideals, but for not seeing how this retarded chess match will play out once another (probably more catastrophic) terrorist attack occurs.
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  #69  
Old 12-21-2005, 10:25 PM
ACPlayer ACPlayer is offline
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Default Re: Well Lookee Here! BLUFFThis! is wrong

In matters of personal privacy and liberty they should be treated exactly like US citizens. That includes clandestine eavesdropping without due process -- an activity best left to the stalinists and communists.

They are guests and should be treated as guests.
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  #70  
Old 12-21-2005, 10:34 PM
Rockatansky Rockatansky is offline
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Default Re: Well Lookee Here! BLUFFThis! is wrong

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And the sacrifices such as I have adovcated here being correct, are what helps save the lives of our soldiers and intelligence agents in the field. They're doing their duty and we need to do ours to them.

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Show us ONE example where domestically-gathered intelligence has saved the life of a solider in Iraq. Is this like your little belief in god, where you don't have any proof, but, gosh darn it, you just KNOW it's happening, and everyone else had damn well better believe it's happening too?
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