Couple questions about Christianity - Page 5

RJT · #41 11-22-2005, 01:59 AM

Petey,

I am only interested in your still unproven accusation of heresy of John Paul II relative to the limbo issue. You have not addressed any specific dogma that his CCC conflicts with. I don’t think that the Baltimore Catechism fits the definition. If that is your belief, then we can simply agree that one of us correct. Take your pick on who it is.

To go on tangents other than the limbo issue is not my interest.

RJT

Peter666 · #42 11-22-2005, 02:10 AM

Come on, I am waiting for a theological dissertation trying to prove me wrong. I take no pleasure in condemning JP II as he seemed like an alright guy. But theologically the thing is a total disaster.

-Et tu, Karol Wojtyla!?!-

BluffTHIS! · #43 11-22-2005, 02:13 AM

Proof is incumbent upon him who asserts something, not on him who disputes such an assertion.

RJT · #44 11-22-2005, 02:16 AM

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Proof is incumbent upon him who asserts something, not on him who disputes such an assertion.

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Bluff,

Man, I thought the same thing. Just never could have worded it so eloquently. I need a good ghost writer.

RJT

Peter666 · #45 11-22-2005, 02:27 AM

Back to limbo. I made my case above with all the dogmatic sources, so if you have any specific questions regarding those, I'll be happy to answer.

We don't know for certain if Limbo exists, as this is theological speculation. But it is de fide heresy to condemn anyone who holds this opinion. And we also know that salvation is impossible for the unbaptized (in one of the three forms). If they don't go to a type of "limbo" then the only alternative is a really mild Hell. That was St. Augustine's speculation. We will know for certain in the afterlife.

As for the last Pope, we do not know JP II's exact position on the salvation of unbaptized infants through the CCC. He did not write the CCC, although he authourized it. However, from his fairly vast theological writings, it appears he believes in a general efficacious salvation that was merited to man simply by the incarnation of Christ, thus elevating man's dignity. The sacrifice of Christ on the Cross was not in itself necessary, but an act of love. This helps us understand all of JP II's theology and it follows that this belief would bring about the other errors such as false ecumenism.

It will have to be a future Church Council and Pope that will go through the details in all their intricacy to make official pronouncements of condemnation. This is not unprecedented: it happened twice before in Church history with two other Popes. But they only had one little issue, where JP II engrosses all of Catholic thought with his errors.

BluffTHIS! · #46 11-22-2005, 02:33 AM

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Back to limbo.

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De minimus non curat praetor.

David Sklansky · #47 11-22-2005, 05:21 AM

"However, from his fairly vast theological writings, it appears he believes in a general efficacious salvation that was merited to man simply by the incarnation of Christ, thus elevating man's dignity. The sacrifice of Christ on the Cross was not in itself necessary, but an act of love. This helps us understand all of JP II's theology and it follows that this belief would bring about the other errors such as false ecumenism."

Oh my God! Sounds like you practically had a damn Jew for a Pope!

jokerthief · #48 11-22-2005, 07:15 AM

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Hi. Non Christian here wondering if someone could answer a couple questions for me.

1. Before Jesus, were all people sent to Heaven? Or were they all sent to Hell?
If they were all sent to Heaven, then why would God send Jesus down? Why create this opportunity for people to go to Hell? Also, if they were all sent to Heaven, then who if not humans were in Hell before Jesus?

2. I was always told by my Christian friends that those who did not have an opportunity to find out about Christianity and therefore can't accept Jesus (such as indigenous peoples in remote areas) are given the benefit of the doubt and get to go to heaven. If this is the case, then how do missionaries justify doing what they do?

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1. There were different programs for salvation before Jesus. There were both people who were saved and unsaved. When Jesus came he "sealed the fate" so to speak of those who died before him. They were saved before he came because God is omniscient and knew that Jesus (or really Himself) would save humanity. The act of dying on the cross was God's way of symbolizing to humanity that they did not need "do anything" to be redeemed from sin. He was willing to forgive mankind's act of seperating itself from God and is fully willing to accept anyone who want to come back into God's perfect love. All they have to do is accept this forgivness.

2. Your friend is wrong. God has made it clear that He will make his presence known to all people in some way. I remember studying in my eight grade spanish class that there were Indian tribes in South and Central America that had a religious system that was very close to Christianity. I believe those people are saved. Indigenous people on remote islands, I believe, are more prone to direct revelation through visions and such. I think there are many of these people who are saved but would be completely under the radar. CS Lewis thinks that people of other religions who believe in their religion with a spirit of Christ are saved. If there does exist an all powerfull being who designed and built the universe, he would be capable of having solutions to these problems that we probably can't even imagine. The thing that is very clear is that He wants us to accept Him though.

Hope this helps.

BluffTHIS! · #49 11-22-2005, 10:30 AM

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it appears he believes

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Always splitting hairs and parsing statements word by word searching for heresy. Instead of trusting the Vicar of Christ of whom there so many signs he was favored by God. What a grim and joyless experience of the faith. A very puritan outlook.

RJT · #50 11-22-2005, 11:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
"However, from his fairly vast theological writings, it appears he believes in a general efficacious salvation that was merited to man simply by the incarnation of Christ, thus elevating man's dignity. The sacrifice of Christ on the Cross was not in itself necessary, but an act of love. This helps us understand all of JP II's theology and it follows that this belief would bring about the other errors such as false ecumenism."

Oh my God! Sounds like you practically had a damn Jew for a Pope!

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Yeah, we already had one for a Savior. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]