50/100 NL hand vs Far

[The Gift Of Gab]

The truth is that nobody ever checkraises with a draw and folds it on the same street. Never.

[ggbman]

Kane, i think your read that he is a loose caller and doesn't exercise good pot control go against betting this turn here, as he won't fold as often as you like. When he raises, you are put to a tough decision because it costs you your whole to stack to semi-bluff and you will be called a lot. I would rather see a turn check, and if you hit on the river you will have a shot at getting a decent amount of money in.

[AZK]

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The truth is that nobody ever checkraises with a draw and folds it on the same street. Never.

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Ding ding.

I don't really see how this is even being debated being that in the first line of OP:

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He has made a few loose calls, and I feel that he is a loose caller.

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WTF? So why are you even 3betting here?

[flawless_victory]

hes a limit plyr.
if he plays NL like most limit plyrs, you just played right inti his hands here.
check the turn the first time and dont compound the mistake by reraising.
he about to call you w/ 89.
ugh.

[fuego527]

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I think your math is wrong Kane.

let
x = % time he folds.
so (1-x) = times he calls
7200 in pot
9200 left in your stack
Assuming 22% equity when called

Then your push is EV neutral when

7200x + (1-x){(.22)(22000) - 9200} = 0

Solving for x you need a fold roughly 38% of time here

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oh right, kane's math acted like he was winning the money he pushed in with, and since that push is the action in question, it doesn't count

[KaneKungFu123]

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One problem with this push is he can have a pair + diamond draw now and be priced into calling.

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Do you think he has the right price to call with a pair/flush draw?

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this is far out of my expertise, but anyway...

he gets almost 3:1 on his call.
if he has a diamond draw+pair, he has 7 to 14 outs if behind, lets say 10(?) on average. if he is ahead against a semi bluff, he usualy has 29 or 30 good cards in the deck (32 or 33 if the rank of one card matches yours). that means there must be only a chance of about 10% that you are semi bluffing to make the call correct. that means he should definitely call with a pair + diamond draw imo.

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can you show the math please?

I'm a low stakes tourny player, so please tell me to shut up if I'm being dumb.

Why not check behind on turn? You said he's loose passive, so your FE's pretty low. Granted, you could lose the pot if he's on a draw and either hits or bets the river (I assume you can't call UI on the river, maybe I'm wrong on this), but when he doesn't bet and you're UI, you can check behind and win the pot a fair amount of the time. And, of course, you've got a strong draw and many of the cards that complete your draw may induce a bluff or a sheriffing call out of him on the river.

Given that you didn't check, I don't see what you expect to accomplish by this push. He's getting great odds, the board is draw heavy (so it's pretty easy to put you on a semibluff).

What range did you put him on and which hands is he folding?

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
I think your math is wrong Kane.

let
x = % time he folds.
so (1-x) = times he calls
7200 in pot
9200 left in your stack
Assuming 22% equity when called

Then your push is EV neutral when

7200x + (1-x){(.22)(22000) - 9200} = 0

Solving for x you need a fold roughly 38% of time here

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. Something felt wrong there.

My initial guess when this hand happened was that I needed him to fold about 30%. At 38%, I dont like my play anymore.

[KaneKungFu123]

Results:

He had Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and called.

[KaneKungFu123]

I never considered he backdoored a flush draw because his raise doesnt leave enough money behind in his stack for me to be afriad of the river, basically he is making it push or fold for me which doesnt make much sense with a draw.