am i PC'ed here?

[durron597]

No, getting allin against the shorty is -EV, you're looking at it the wrong way.

Lets say the shorty has a hand like K9s. When it gets to you in the CO, if you just fold your EV is 0. If you raise, he decides to push because he is so short and he has a decent hand against an LP raiser, so he pushes and you are of course going to call.

However, you knew that you would call any allin from the shorty, so you really are investing the whole 435 chips to begin with even though you only bet 150. The only difference is the amount you lose when a bigger stack raises you.

Just because it's +EV to call once the initial raise is in, it doesn't mean it's +EV to get allin against the shortstack when he has the decision whether he does or not and you have no money in the pot.

Too often you are risking 435 to win 75 here against a hand that's usually better than yours, so I fold.

[John Hurst]

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold BECAUSE I know an allin from the shorty would obligate me to call.

[/ QUOTE ] That is not enough reason to fold. I think this is a mediocre raise. Not terrible but not great. But as a SNG player you can't get caught up with, "I can't raise because X, Y, or Z might happen. Let other people tighten up and raise away."

[durron597]

What I meant was, normally I would be risking 150 to win 75, which is fine.

However, if the shortstack reraises me, suddenly I am risking 435 to win 75, where when I get to showdown I win less than half the time.

In other words that fact turns what would be a borderline +EV steal into a -EV play.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
What I meant was, normally I would be risking 150 to win 75, which is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't have to call the shorty's push. if i want to i can fold, and then i am "risking 150 to win 75." but, i can do better. calling is better than folding, so now i am "risking 150 to win 75" except when the SB pushes, where i am doing something slightly better.


[ QUOTE ]


However, if the shortstack reraises me, suddenly I am risking 435 to win 75, where when I get to showdown I win less than half the time.

In other words that fact turns what would be a borderline +EV steal into a -EV play.

[/ QUOTE ]

the only reason the shortness doesn't make the play better is that SB's range is looser.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
it doesn't mean it's +EV to get allin against the shortstack when he has the decision whether he does or not and you have no money in the pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

i agree with that. i don't want to be all-in with the shorty. but you're not comparing the same two cases that i am.

start from a baseline of 0EV = the beginning of the hand. when i am reraised by a big stack, my EV for the hand is -150. when i am reraised by the shorty, it's -130 (or something). getting reraised by the shorty hurts less than getting reraised by anyone else (ignoring their differences in ranges for right now).

the argument for why i should fold is that the SB will push with marginal hands like K9s that are better than mine whereas a normal-stacked SB would fold them.

[A_PLUS]

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold BECAUSE I know an allin from the shorty would obligate me to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

yep. I will only raise here if I have a hand I am willing to call down the SB with. They will be pushing too often to risk 150 chip here. The 75 just dont help you that much.

[A_PLUS]

The way I look at it.

Your cards are insignificant here if you fold. So, your not playing the value of your hand, your just playing F.E.

You are making a mistake to play QT PF for 400+ for value.

So, either you are depending on F.E. when you shouldnt be (SB will push too often).

or

You are playing a hand for value where it has none.

I play 77+, A8+, and KQs for value here (just how I think I would actually play, may be wrong). Otherwise I fold.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
The way I look at it.

Your cards are insignificant here if you fold. So, your not playing the value of your hand, your just playing F.E.

You are making a mistake to play QT PF for 400+ for value.

So, either you are depending on F.E. when you shouldnt be (SB will push too often).

or

You are playing a hand for value where it has none.

I play 77+, A8+, and KQs for value here (just how I think I would actually play, may be wrong). Otherwise I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm playing it for both FE and value, not one or the other. it's something like:

70% +75 (steal)
15% -150 (fold to a resteal)
15% -130 (call SB's push)

i wouldn't do this with 32o b/c then i'd be worse off than -130 to SB's push.

[KingMedicine]

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold BECAUSE I know an allin from the shorty would obligate me to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

bingo

[A_PLUS]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The way I look at it.

Your cards are insignificant here if you fold. So, your not playing the value of your hand, your just playing F.E.

You are making a mistake to play QT PF for 400+ for value.

So, either you are depending on F.E. when you shouldnt be (SB will push too often).

or

You are playing a hand for value where it has none.

I play 77+, A8+, and KQs for value here (just how I think I would actually play, may be wrong). Otherwise I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm playing it for both FE and value, not one or the other. it's something like:

70% +75 (steal)
15% -150 (fold to a resteal)
15% -130 (call SB's push)

i wouldn't do this with 32o b/c then i'd be worse off than -130 to SB's push.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you know nothing new about the SBs hand to help your decision, so that decision is made before hand. Either you are calling (value) or folding (steal). He isnt going to call you with his stack size, so it is 30% in one or the other.


If you are always going to call, the you are back to Durron's point. If you always fold, it is just a bad spot to use F.E.