QJ preflop

[TTChamp]

I would like to get everyone's opinion on playing QJs preflop on 2/4 and 3/6 tables at party. I typically have two strategies with this hand.

1. If I am a late position and there have already been 3 limpers I will limp as well.

2. If there is only one or two limpers I will raise PF and then try to steal the pot later (or take a free card on flop/turn.).

I have seen posts in this forum where some one will raise from late postion with these hands when there are as many as 4 limpers already in the pot. Am I missing something here? Should I be raising in these situations?

Also any thoughts on jts, qts, kjs in similar scenarios?

What about the unsuited versions of all of these hands?

[toss]

The reason you should raise a hand like QJs after many limpers is that this kind of hand plays well in large multiway pots. You build a large pot for yourself should you hit a straight or a flush. If you're in CO or MP3 theres even more reason to raise since you want position for the rest of the streets. You want to take control of the hand.

I also raise JTs, T9s, and even 89s in this position.

[LImitPlayer]

I will open raise in any position QJs and Q10s as well as KJs and K10s. I wil also raise these hands after any number of limpers.

Some people will disagree with this, but I play well postflop ( I think so anyway) so these are all +ev raises for me even UTG

I fold all the unsuited verison of these hands in early position and will open raise them in MP or later.

I will limp with all the unsuited versions of these hands on the button cutoff or Hijack, with a couple of limpers and raise KJ K10 QJ Q10 after 1 limper in Late position

[Harv72b]

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I will open raise in any position QJs and Q10s as well as KJs and K10s. I wil also raise these hands after any number of limpers.

Some people will disagree with this, but I play well postflop ( I think so anyway) so these are all +ev raises for me even UTG


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This sounds like exactly the type of player I love to isolate on with a 3-bet.

These open-raises are fine in a tight game or on a short-handed table, or even as an occasional change of pace play, but in a normal, 10-handed game, these are not +EV no matter how well you play postflop. Assuming your sample size is great enough to produce meaningful positional stats, I would challenge you to take a look at how well you do when raising QJs, QTs, and KTs from EP. I think you'll see that this is a losing proposition in most games.

Back to the OP, the reason you raise a hand like QJs behind many limpers is because it plays so well against a large field, but also because raising will often give you the required pot odds to chase flopped draws with it (and you will often flop a draw with a hand like this). And since none of these hands can make a non-nut, 2 card straight, and each will make a near-nut flush, you will often win when you do hit your draw.

There are other considerations, too, such as the likelihood that it will be checked to you on the flop, the possibility of buying the button, etc.

[FishHooks]

Would you raise QTs or JTs as well in LP with 3-4 limpers?

[TTChamp]

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I will open raise in any position QJs and Q10s as well as KJs and K10s. I wil also raise these hands after any number of limpers.

Some people will disagree with this, but I play well postflop ( I think so anyway) so these are all +ev raises for me even UTG


[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds like exactly the type of player I love to isolate on with a 3-bet.

These open-raises are fine in a tight game or on a short-handed table, or even as an occasional change of pace play, but in a normal, 10-handed game, these are not +EV no matter how well you play postflop. Assuming your sample size is great enough to produce meaningful positional stats, I would challenge you to take a look at how well you do when raising QJs, QTs, and KTs from EP. I think you'll see that this is a losing proposition in most games.

Back to the OP, the reason you raise a hand like QJs behind many limpers is because it plays so well against a large field, but also because raising will often give you the required pot odds to chase flopped draws with it (and you will often flop a draw with a hand like this). And since none of these hands can make a non-nut, 2 card straight, and each will make a near-nut flush, you will often win when you do hit your draw.

There are other considerations, too, such as the likelihood that it will be checked to you on the flop, the possibility of buying the button, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

But with a hand like QJs and >3 limpers playing in front of you, you will be getting the right odds to call most of your draws on the flop anyway (some gut shots excluded) right?

I'm not the most experienced player so I think I also need some help understanding your logic. I think you are saying that if there is more money in the pot PF then there is more of a chance that continuing the hand on the flop will be a +EV play. But wouldn't the same thing be true of much weaker hands like 64s (i.e. if you put enough money in the pot PF then you can probobly make calling with 64s on the flop +EV)?

[TheHip41]

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I will open raise in any position QJs and Q10s as well as KJs and K10s. I wil also raise these hands after any number of limpers.

Some people will disagree with this, but I play well postflop ( I think so anyway) so these are all +ev raises for me even UTG


[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds like exactly the type of player I love to isolate on with a 3-bet.

These open-raises are fine in a tight game or on a short-handed table, or even as an occasional change of pace play, but in a normal, 10-handed game, these are not +EV no matter how well you play postflop. Assuming your sample size is great enough to produce meaningful positional stats, I would challenge you to take a look at how well you do when raising QJs, QTs, and KTs from EP. I think you'll see that this is a losing proposition in most games.

Back to the OP, the reason you raise a hand like QJs behind many limpers is because it plays so well against a large field, but also because raising will often give you the required pot odds to chase flopped draws with it (and you will often flop a draw with a hand like this). And since none of these hands can make a non-nut, 2 card straight, and each will make a near-nut flush, you will often win when you do hit your draw.

There are other considerations, too, such as the likelihood that it will be checked to you on the flop, the possibility of buying the button, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

But with a hand like QJs and >3 limpers playing in front of you, you will be getting the right odds to call most of your draws on the flop anyway (some gut shots excluded) right?

I'm not the most experienced player so I think I also need some help understanding your logic. I think you are saying that if there is more money in the pot PF then there is more of a chance that continuing the hand on the flop will be a +EV play. But wouldn't the same thing be true of much weaker hands like 64s (i.e. if you put enough money in the pot PF then you can probobly make calling with 64s on the flop +EV)?

[/ QUOTE ]


The difference between QJs an 64s is this, if you flop 'your' top pair, a Q in the QJ, compared to a 6 in the 64, which is more likely to be top pair?

The reason I raise QJs after like 3 limpers is this, there are a lot of hands that are in front of you that suck, and you want to get them to put in more money post flop.

If you raise 3 limpers, it will probably end up being a 10SB, 5 player pot to the flop. If the flop is Axx, none of your suit, just check/fold. If you flop top pair, you got a bigger pot. If you flop a straight/flush draw, you have almost infinite odds.

Also, say someone up front has A3o and you raise QJs. If the flop comes AT2, the A3 probably won't bet, and you can take a free card if you'd like. Only good things happen when you raise and take control of the hand.

[Harv72b]

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But with a hand like QJs and >3 limpers playing in front of you, you will be getting the right odds to call most of your draws on the flop anyway (some gut shots excluded) right?

I'm not the most experienced player so I think I also need some help understanding your logic. I think you are saying that if there is more money in the pot PF then there is more of a chance that continuing the hand on the flop will be a +EV play. But wouldn't the same thing be true of much weaker hands like 64s (i.e. if you put enough money in the pot PF then you can probobly make calling with 64s on the flop +EV)?

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TheHip already made the point about catching top pair, but there's more to it than that. KJ/QJ/QT/JT etc cannot make a non-nut straight when using both cards. So that means that when you catch a straight with one of these hands, you are going to win every time, unless someone else makes a flush or FH (or quads). This is not true of a hand like 64s, where you can catch a straight with a flop of 578, for example, but then the 9 comes on the turn and you're drawing dead to a JT, or the turn is a 6 and suddenly you're behind anyone with a 9 in their hand. King or Queen-high flushes are also far more likely to hold up than a 6-high flush (and a 6-high flush is almost never going to be good if the board comes 4-suited; you stand a pretty decent chance, especially on small stakes, of your 2nd or 3rd nut flush holding up even in these cases). This is why these hands play so well against a large field--you aren't going to hit the board big very often, but when you do, you're going to win a lot of the time. So you can afford to fold a lot of flops in exchange for the few huge pots you do win.

[TTChamp]

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But with a hand like QJs and >3 limpers playing in front of you, you will be getting the right odds to call most of your draws on the flop anyway (some gut shots excluded) right?

I'm not the most experienced player so I think I also need some help understanding your logic. I think you are saying that if there is more money in the pot PF then there is more of a chance that continuing the hand on the flop will be a +EV play. But wouldn't the same thing be true of much weaker hands like 64s (i.e. if you put enough money in the pot PF then you can probobly make calling with 64s on the flop +EV)?

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TheHip already made the point about catching top pair, but there's more to it than that. KJ/QJ/QT/JT etc cannot make a non-nut straight when using both cards. So that means that when you catch a straight with one of these hands, you are going to win every time, unless someone else makes a flush or FH (or quads). This is not true of a hand like 64s, where you can catch a straight with a flop of 578, for example, but then the 9 comes on the turn and you're drawing dead to a JT, or the turn is a 6 and suddenly you're behind anyone with a 9 in their hand. King or Queen-high flushes are also far more likely to hold up than a 6-high flush (and a 6-high flush is almost never going to be good if the board comes 4-suited; you stand a pretty decent chance, especially on small stakes, of your 2nd or 3rd nut flush holding up even in these cases). This is why these hands play so well against a large field--you aren't going to hit the board big very often, but when you do, you're going to win a lot of the time. So you can afford to fold a lot of flops in exchange for the few huge pots you do win.

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Alright, I think you guys convinced me. I think the mistake I have been making is that when I raise PF with a hand like this I feel compelled to bet the flop no matter what (in a futile attempt to make everyone fold). This is not a bad strtegy heads up or against 2 tight players, but when there are >2 limpers and I raise from late position with these hands I should just check the flop when I miss (i.e. no pair and no strong draw). Am I getting this right?

[LImitPlayer]

This is 2-4. Not 15-30

There are not that many players that are 3-betting to isolate. IF you are one of those players, than you are the exception, not the rule. The 1 time in 10 that it does happen, oh well, sometimes I win, sometimes I lose.

The other 9 times outa 10 I raise these hands, If I get cold called by a couple of players I have a hand that plays well multi-way and If I get cold called by 1 player I can play well enough postflop that it is +EV.

I would look up my postitional stats however I no longer have any in my PT database. I bought a new computer and the files were to large to copy.

I moved to the 5-10 6 max games so keeping the 2-4 databse wasn't an issue.