Could you fold FH on the river?

[pilchard]

I called, UTG called.

UTG+1 had KTs for a boat and UTG had A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] .

My thoughts afterwards were as follows:

1) My instincts were that I should fold on the river (should have trusted them!!). However, as Lee points out, I was getting 7.5-1 on a call (provided no raise and I'd have felt comfortable folding to another raise) and so I think a call was in order.

2) Both of my opponents played the hand poorly (in my opinion). If I was UTG+1 I'd have raised the flop (top two pair) and UTG should have definitely led the turn. Their mistakes made it more difficult for me to fold on the river.

[bernie]

"Their mistakes made it more difficult for me to fold on the river"

this can be construde that they played it well enough to make you call the river. especially if it maximized their earn. though id have to look at the hand again...

remember, the idea isnt to play well and good cards so you lose action, it's so that it's harder to put them on hands and being tougher to read. not saying that was the conscious case here, but the above statement can be turned around.

just a thought

b

[Tyler Durden]

he raised preflop from the button. how can he have a small flush?

[DanZ]

Hero has represented a hand of some sort, and so has UTG AND UTG+1. It's only partially a matter of whether or not UTG+1 would raise without a FH, it's would UTG bet with less that A of flush, AND would UTG+1 raise with the ace of flush AND are these the hands they both hold. BTW, I think it's almost impossible for UTG+1 to raise here with the ace of flush, unless he has a royal.

Add to this the following:

the only way we beat UTG+1 is if he holds the Ad. If he holds the Ad, he cannont expect the button to bet for him on the turn, so he will usually bet. This does not necessarily apply to UTG, who has 2 players left to act behind him, and who might force out UTG+1 with a bet when he is drawing near dead.

This is a 5+ way parlay on the river, indicating the odds are not there to call. There are possible (barely plausible) scenarios where your hand is good, but it's nowhere near 1 in 7.

Dan Z.

[elysium]

hi pilchard
well, the A hi checks.....the UTG enters with KT, well....; you can't get into hand reading here pilchard. when you run into these mindless plays, rate the opponent downward, and simply be willing to hand it to him when he wins like this. that's why these opponents are there; to win one occassionally. congradulate them on their excellent play.

[mikelow]

A good point--that's why people play deceptively.

[DanZ]

"well, the A hi checks.....the UTG enters with KT, well....;"

Shocking, A9o is a little out there, but KTs is standard procedure. What fish for playing KTs in a loose passive game. Our hero will need to sit on a phone book to see over the mountain of chips he will soon have in front of him.

"you can't get into hand reading here pilchard."

Of course not, that would require both learning how to read hands and having the courage to use your read. Both are totally unnecessary, since we know we are the superior players who select superior starting hands.

"when you run into these mindless plays, rate the opponent downward, and simply be willing to hand it to him when he wins like this."

Right, our hero flushes 2 big bets on a 100-1 shot, and the fishes with the nut flush draw and top 2 are morons for being there against the powerhouse that is pocket eights.

"that's why these opponents are there; to win one occassionally. congradulate them on their excellent play."

The opponents UTG+1 played the hand perfectly. The opponent UTG made 2 errors:
1) playing the hand preflop (a bet fragment error)
2} calling the river raise (a big bet error)

His turn check wins him the pot if our hero has AxJd or JxJd, or if he bets AA or AK on the turn. So it is certainly something to consider, since UTG+1 either has 2 pair or TT or is drawing to 9d or totally dead. UTG's turn check raise could knock out KQ, T8 and KT and win a big pot for him, and 2 pair is the most likely hand for UTG+1.

Our hero flushed 2 big bets on the river, and made very debatable raises on the first 2 streets. Our hero had a good read on the river, but needs to follow it up with the correct play.

The takeaway is: good read, hopefully this experience gives you more faith in your hand reading ability so you can profit from it in the future.

Dan Z.