Could you fold FH on the river?

[pilchard]

Here's a hand I played at a 10$/20$ online game. The game is pretty loose and there are plenty of people out of their depth, just how I like it.

I have 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] on the button. The two other players of note in this hand and are UTG and UTG+1. They tend to be winning players online, they are both a bit loose but tend to read hands pretty well and play accordingly. Having said that I hate the way they both play this hand.

To the action, UTG limps, UTG+1 calls, two others call and I think a raise is in order. I raise and SB,BB and limpers call.

7 Big Bets. Flop K [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] .

check, check, UTG bets. UTG+1 calls, two limpers call, I raise. SB and BB folds, UTG and UTG+1 call. Other two fold.

11 Big Bets. Turn is Q [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]. Do I not like that.
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, I check.

River T [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] (yippee).
UTG bets, UTG+1 raises!!!!

I'm virtually certain I'm beat (I'll give my reasons later) but would anybody else fold here? Would anyone raise?

[bernie]

id call it.

i definitely wouldnt raise it.

youve represented a small flush the way you played.

unless you know these players wouldnt raise on a 4 flush paired board w/o a FH. but im not conviced yet. but you know them better than us

b

[Tyler Durden]

he raised preflop from the button. how can he have a small flush?

[DanZ]

Hero has represented a hand of some sort, and so has UTG AND UTG+1. It's only partially a matter of whether or not UTG+1 would raise without a FH, it's would UTG bet with less that A of flush, AND would UTG+1 raise with the ace of flush AND are these the hands they both hold. BTW, I think it's almost impossible for UTG+1 to raise here with the ace of flush, unless he has a royal.

Add to this the following:

the only way we beat UTG+1 is if he holds the Ad. If he holds the Ad, he cannont expect the button to bet for him on the turn, so he will usually bet. This does not necessarily apply to UTG, who has 2 players left to act behind him, and who might force out UTG+1 with a bet when he is drawing near dead.

This is a 5+ way parlay on the river, indicating the odds are not there to call. There are possible (barely plausible) scenarios where your hand is good, but it's nowhere near 1 in 7.

Dan Z.

[elysium]

hi pilchard
you should raise here pilchard. you likely have the lead here actually. the only hands that beat you are J9d and AJd, so there is only 1 possible hand that beats yours, if your opponents wouldn't enter in from UTG positions with KT or QT, and you have every reason to believe they wouldn,t. it looks like UTG+ has the second nut flush, and UTG has two pair.

now, the turn checks by both opponents are suspicious on that draw infested board. however, since the possibility of a set is very remote, and there is only one straight flush possible, you certainly beat at least one opponent. the other opponent could have the less than nut flush trying to hit a straight flush, and checking it on the turn because his hand can improve. so you're definately not against a nut flush, that's true, but you are likely against top two pair and a second nut flush.

you must reraise. you may even get the unlikely QT to fold given the frightening board. no you say? a raise would never fold a full-house? pilchard, let me tell you something. on this frightening board a raise or reraise may actually fold a full-house! but don't tell antone. it's a guarded secret.

[Bama Boy]

Tc Th also beats him, but I would still raise for the reasons you listed, and call down a re-raise if there was on expecting to be beat...

[DanZ]

Most players will play KTs and QTs from utg (I usually do, but not always). QTs is unlikely, but KTs sure is. I think the advice to "fold KQs if UTG limps" from a previous post indicates some very extreme views on preflop play that might be worth revisiting.

In a good, loose game, players will be plays "J9s UTG, and anything better". I bet you can tell me where that quoute is from.

I think that one should generally fold on the river. It would be crazy to raise in this spot with less than A of flush, so the only way to beat the raiser is if he has the ace of flush. However, if the raiser has Ax of flush, the bettor has to have a full house, which must be better than yours, 4 tens, or Jd9d.

I think I would fold also.

Dan Z.

[Buckshot]

In my experience, I have never, EVER, seen an online player fold a full house. Period. Even if the board was A33xA they call a raise, with 3 in their hand, on the river even when there are more than two players in the pot. Then they type "you suckout artist" or "I knew it, but had to see it". It certainly boggles the mind.

~stephen

[Clarkmeister]

"I'm virtually certain I'm beat (I'll give my reasons later) but would anybody else fold here? Would anyone raise?"

Without giving your reasons, its impossible for us to give you an answer that is relevant to this particular hand. For example UTG+1 raises only with the nuts, thats critical information.

In general, I'd at least call.

[pilchard]

Good point Clark,

My thinking was as follows:

UTG led into most of the field on the flop and then just called my flop raise. He can't have a set, he'd have raised preflop (or reraised my preflop raise) with KK or TT. He's a half decent player so I can only assume he'll play straightforward with this many players on a single suited flop. He probably has two pair, top pair or a high [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]. He'd have reraised with a flush. If he's got a high [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] you'd think it was the A although he could have Qx J [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] or K/T x J [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img].

The same logic applies to the UTG+1.

Now looking at my screen I thought that it was most likely the UTG had the A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] . UTG+1 would raise on the river without the nuts but I just get a feeling that he can beat a flush and if so he beats me.

I placed the cursor over the fold button and wanted to press it. I felt I was beat but what's the old adage about good folds on the river. I called.

Thinking afterwards, the key thing about this hand is that the four flush on the board was all made up of cards 8 and above. If the board had been J [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] I think I have an easy call to the raise and would reraise but given that the UTG and UTG+1 although a little loose are still selective in early position, regardless of the result, a fold could be in order.