Open Raise from MP (Poll)

[jason_t]

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whats interesting to me is yours and alot of ther players lack of appreciation of suitedness. also interesting is your apparent value of ace high in comparison to KTo. i guess you value A2o more than KTo also? alot of ace high hands have significant reverse implied odds but most people dont seem to realize that. they just punch these hands into the pokerstove/twodimes applications and base their values strictly on hot and cold preflop equity.

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All very true. Nice post.

Krishan

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[Wes ManTooth]

no, I don’t always appreciate A2o more then KTo, there are other factors that apply. In addition I do not lack appreciation of suitedness, I was making a point of the voting discrepancy.

[waffle]

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i guess you value A2o more than KTo also? alot of ace high hands have significant reverse implied odds but most people dont seem to realize that. they just punch these hands into the pokerstove/twodimes applications and base their values strictly on hot and cold preflop equity.

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You have a point, I agree (anyone who would value a2o over kto in this position is insane). But hands like A7s, and to a lesser extent KTo, have a distinct advantage over hands like JTs and T8s in these 2 and 3 way pots that is 'realized' occasionally. I enjoy checking behind the river and having my ace high be good.

[DMBFan23]

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btw dids i think youre wrong about hating these polls. we should all be astute enough to know that most hands arent profitable 100% of the time and most hands arent unprofitable 100% of the time. however, it takes a great amount of skill to really be able to determine when certain hands become more profitable then others and that skill involves alot of understanding of postflop concepts. these polls and preflop guidelines fix alot of preflop problems for good players who lack ability to understand these concepts. in the long run everybody should be trying to develop into a strong enough player to come to their own conclusions but in the meantime these guidelines will make those people alot of money who arent there yet.

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Polls encourage a quick, cursory thought process in response to what are difficult questions. They tend to not provide much content and do give a lot of people the wrong impression about preflop play.

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FWIW they advocate a similar approach in HPFAP, where they admit that each individual hand has a value dependant on situation, image, etc, but 'for a beginner they no of no better approach' than to memorize hand groups, and to know that if the game is typical you can raise groups X-Z in middle position.

I'm glad they had the groups, cause I wasn't ready for understanding each hand for itself but I liked money

[wheelz]

as i default i fold A7o A6o and 44, raise the rest... well K9o more than half the time at least, i think.

err i also fold JTo

[TStoneMBD]

also keep in mind that around 7 months ago i just began playing shorthanded at 5/10 coming from a full ring background. i really didnt understand preflop starting hand values and actually used a starting hand guideline to figure out what hands to play. i ended up with a strong winrate but it wouldnt have been nearly as good if i didnt have the guidelines to look to or have twoplustwo to tell me what hands i should be playing. the point is that the ultimate goal should be to understand what makes starting hands profitable but when you arent good enough to come to your own conclusions these starting hand charts will save/make you alot of money.

[DMBFan23]

I'm so glad you said that...should I start raising JTo in MP?

[TStoneMBD]

i really dont think JTo has value from MP. ive only recently started raising QJo from MP and i only did that because everyone told me it was profitable. im still a little skeptical about that but i think theyre right. unfortunately ill never actually know, i can only hope i become good enough to know when QJo is profitable and when it isnt.

[DMBFan23]

yeah similar to your thoughts re: A8o and A9o, I consider J9s a raise with a healthy amount of value from MP but didn't like JTo a whole lot, I was thinking either I overvalue suitedness or undervalue JTo. maybe those two plays are consistent after all

[TStoneMBD]

ive always suspected that suitedness has alot of value. some people dont agree. i think one day ill have some profound insights on the matter, right now i dont.