Raising middle pairs

[Richie Rich]

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That is why I raise almost all small pairs (except out of the blinds and UTG with VERY small pairs. I will also limp after 2+ limpers up to JJ.

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Huh? The second sentence seems to contradict the first.

[AZK]

I don't do it very much online until I build a stack (150xBB or greater) there is no reason to. I also wouldn't recommend it for 3/6 or lower, no reason. 5/10 and higher when you start to play with the same people everyday you have to start raising with a wide array of hands. When you play live (5/5 or higher), the stacks are often really deep so there is more room for creativity postflop, this move just helps throw your opponents off. Ice what hands do you raise with now? It sounds like you have a good system for the limits you play now, I don't think raising pairs would help, but against more observant, aggressive, tricky opponents, it becomes standard....

[iceman5]

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I don't do it very much online until I build a stack (150xBB or greater) there is no reason to. I also wouldn't recommend it for 3/6 or lower, no reason. 5/10 and higher when you start to play with the same people everyday you have to start raising with a wide array of hands. When you play live (5/5 or higher), the stacks are often really deep so there is more room for creativity postflop, this move just helps throw your opponents off. Ice what hands do you raise with now? It sounds like you have a good system for the limits you play now, I don't think raising pairs would help, but against more observant, aggressive, tricky opponents, it becomes standard....

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I raise most of the standard raising hands of course ( AA-TT, AK/AQ). I also limp AK/AQ/AJ depending on position and who is in the hand. What I like to do to throw off the opponent is raise suited connectors (instead of middle pairs), raise from the button with just about anything if there is a limper or 2 who folds too much...and I also limp in EP with big pairs quite a bit.

Also, at Prima there is usually 2-4 short stacks (like 10-20BBs). If those guys are between me and the button, I cant see any reason to raise anything except a premium hand because they are liable to go all in with any hand they want to play.

My preflop raise % is about 4% but I limp in EP with AA and KK alot.

I know that has nothing to do with this "raising middle pairs" thread. I just thought I would mention it.

Can someone tell me how asking about raising middle pairs is a pure math question? If I raise to 4BBs with 66 and I get reraised to 10BBs and i think the guy has AA and I can bust him if I hit a set , would be a pure math question depending on stack sizes.....but the general question about raising preflop is not a pure math question.

[Marnixvdb]

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The only benefit I see to raising these pairs is to give some cover for when you raise your real hands,

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middle pairs are real hands

[neon]

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3. what is your level of education? i ask this because you very often post simple mathmatical problems couched as poker questions and then cannot do the math when asked to. this can be answered with a simple EV calcualtion, just like the one i had to do for you in the KK thread (how you got your answer, i don't know, but i can't see how you could screw the math up that bad). If you can't do 12th grade level math, then you probably shouldn't discuss some of the hands posted here because much of their analysis lies in doing the math. If you cannot, there is no shame in grabbing an algebra textbook and reviewing, it will make you a better poker player and a better person.

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First of all, I think that both you guys are being *really* childish. Please do the rest of us a favor and take the petty hostility out of the tone of your posts, and if you truly feel the need to bicker like small children, do it somewhere else and stop wasting everyone else's time.

Secondly, fim (and I don't know if you're even going to read this or not), but I graduated from a quite reputable college w/ honors, scored a 750 on the math section of the SAT, and still don't know how to make EV calculations. It's not a function of my level of education, or relative intelligence, it's simply b/c I've never seen a simple explanation of the mathematical formula one would use to make such a calculation. Perhaps the area I am most intent upon improving in my game is my ability to make quick mathematical intimations on the fly, and I feel like the boards here at 2+2 are the best place for me to do so.

In other words, instead of taking such a demeaning tone and insulting someone who may or may not be less intelligent than you are, perhaps take two minutes out of your day and lay out the numbers. I, for one, would certainly appreciate it a great deal.

As for raising middle pairs, when I'm playing short, I open raise w/ every pair, and depending upon the flow of the game, will sometimes reraise preflop w/ pairs 77-99 and good position. Of course, I wouldn't recommend that everyone try this, but it usually falls right in line w/ my aggro table image. At a full table, I'll sometimes pump it up preflop w/ the same hands, but not nearly as frequently, unless stacks are sufficiently deep such that the deceptive value of hitting a set after raising 55 and such in LP will pay significant dividends.

[tdomeski]

Obviously raising middle pairs is something that becomes more +EV the deeper the stack. I think you will find that raising middle pairs become a very good play with position b/c these hands have good showdown value even if you are called on your flop continuation bet and many players will just call a raise with AK out of position yet play their TPTK for their entire stack.

For example,
Limp from the CO with 66 and have the BB check AKo with a flop of A 2 6.

Now. .

Raise from the CO with 66, have the BB call you with AK then a flop of A 2 6.

Which hand do you think you will make more on?

[neon]

Exactly.

Raising pairs w/ position is effectively like a sweetener. If there's $30 in the pot preflop and you hit a set vs. someone's TPTK, you're not going to win nearly as much as if there's $100+ in the pot before the flop. It lets you win bigger pots w/ your big hands.

[iceman5]

Agreed, but thats 1 in 8 times. What about the other 7 times when you miss your set, make a continuation bet, get called and have to give up?

Also, if you have 66 in the cutoff and the BB has AT with that same A62 flop (I think thats what it was), you will win more when you didnt raise because alot of guys will fold AT to a raise and if they do call, they wont give serious action.

Several people have mentioned playing short handed. Im assuming a full ring for this thread since thats all I play.

This is probably not possible to know, but is there any way to figure what percentage of continuation bets get called?

I mean has anyone just sat down and recorded how many times they raise preflop, bet the flop and get called (regardless of the flop)?

[fimbulwinter]

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3. what is your level of education? i ask this because you very often post simple mathmatical problems couched as poker questions and then cannot do the math when asked to. this can be answered with a simple EV calcualtion, just like the one i had to do for you in the KK thread (how you got your answer, i don't know, but i can't see how you could screw the math up that bad). If you can't do 12th grade level math, then you probably shouldn't discuss some of the hands posted here because much of their analysis lies in doing the math. If you cannot, there is no shame in grabbing an algebra textbook and reviewing, it will make you a better poker player and a better person.

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First of all, I think that both you guys are being *really* childish. Please do the rest of us a favor and take the petty hostility out of the tone of your posts, and if you truly feel the need to bicker like small children, do it somewhere else and stop wasting everyone else's time.

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first, you don't have to read any of this. like i've said before, what people think of an online poker persona means nothing to me for a plethora of reasons, so your complaints fall on deaf ears.

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Secondly, fim (and I don't know if you're even going to read this or not), but I graduated from a quite reputable college w/ honors, scored a 750 on the math section of the SAT, and still don't know how to make EV calculations. It's not a function of my level of education, or relative intelligence, it's simply b/c I've never seen a simple explanation of the mathematical formula one would use to make such a calculation. Perhaps the area I am most intent upon improving in my game is my ability to make quick mathematical intimations on the fly, and I feel like the boards here at 2+2 are the best place for me to do so.

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reading one of the many posts i've made where i calculate EV is enough to learn this. simply sum the EV's of individulal options tiems their likelyhood. you can take this many levels, but the baseline is the same. estimating the likelyhoods is where experience comes in. as for your SAT score/academic justification, i really don't know what to say. If i tell you my qualifications in turn it will sound like i'm bragging or demeaning you, if i don't it will sound like i'm asking for something out of the pale of most posters, so i'll leave that one alone.

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In other words, instead of taking such a demeaning tone and insulting someone who may or may not be less intelligent than you are, perhaps take two minutes out of your day and lay out the numbers. I, for one, would certainly appreciate it a great deal.

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he is less intelligent than I am. One job ii've had, for which i was paid a very large amount, is screening applicants based on essays and written answers to problems. My experience there leads me to the conclusions i have previously presented.

as for the math, i'll put it in a separate post if you'd like, as i know there are many who are avoiding this spat. again, nobody is forcing you to read any of this.

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As for raising middle pairs, when I'm playing short, I open raise w/ every pair, and depending upon the flow of the game, will sometimes reraise preflop w/ pairs 77-99 and good position. Of course, I wouldn't recommend that everyone try this, but it usually falls right in line w/ my aggro table image. At a full table, I'll sometimes pump it up preflop w/ the same hands, but not nearly as frequently, unless stacks are sufficiently deep such that the deceptive value of hitting a set after raising 55 and such in LP will pay significant dividends.

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this sounds about right with the caveat that the original proposition (playing very short) is unlikely to happen in a cash game but can very often be seen in tournament play.

fim

[tdomeski]

you would be surprised how many BB's will call a continuation bet with AK on a T 8 3 flop then be happy to check it down with you.

you can also just hit your set on the turn if you miss the flop.