Raising middle pairs

[Allinlife]

your arguement is too position-player dependent, especially short handed I think. I raise all PP if it looks like

1) buys me button
2) decent chance blinds will fold
3) my image is tight enough / opponents are passive post flop and continuation bets can expect a decent +EV when I have position.

plus, shania is cool.

I am more prone to limp pp behind a limper, or in middle/early position.

[fimbulwinter]

Just compare the EV's:

raising:

added EV of hitting set (easier to get stack in on bloated pot)
EV of getting to make continuation bet on flop (against certain/most opponents flop continuation bets are +EV with no cards at all)
added EV of folding best hand (you raise 44 and 55-jj play for set value)
added EV/shania of destroying implied odds with small pfrs's. (if you only have an overpair 1/3 times, someone trying to flop a set from a 4% stack raise is losing a lot of money.)

limping:

better implied odds



basically raising them, with position mostly, gets better as stacks get deeper (as do most all position raises).

FWIW you could have just done a little math on your own using your own assumptions and avoided the need for this thread entirely.

fim

[not_da_nizzles]

[ QUOTE ]

Theres a very good chance Im stacking AQ with my 44 on a AQ4 flop no matter if I raised or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly ...

Unless the game is shorthanded the power of small PP's are in their implied odds. Get in there cheap and stack someone.

mj

[Jonny]

I like to raise almost all PP's when playing shorthanded. It is very hard for them to get away from K57 flop when you have raised 55 and they have KQ. Don't tell me that you will be stacking them if the pot is unraised, it simply won't happen unless they are horrible.

Example in 5/10. You limp with 55 UTG+1. Button calls, and blinds call. $40 in pot. Flop is K57, and you have 55. Lets say you lead out and hope someone has a K. You can only really bet up to pot on this flop. I think its easier to get the money in raised.

So lets say you raise to $40 PF and flop is the same as before. Now you bet around $100 (3/4 pot, as one of the blinds is likely to call with the button), and now if he decides to raise with his TP, he is stacked.

It just makes it easier to get the money in when you hit a set if you raise PF. Also, say the flop is Jxx, and you bet the flop. The guy with KQ is folding, and you take down a small pot.

That is why I raise almost all small pairs (except out of the blinds and UTG with VERY small pairs. I will also limp after 2+ limpers up to JJ.

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
Just compare the EV's:

raising:

added EV of hitting set (easier to get stack in on bloated pot)
EV of getting to make continuation bet on flop (against certain/most opponents flop continuation bets are +EV with no cards at all)
added EV of folding best hand (you raise 44 and 55-jj play for set value)
added EV/shania of destroying implied odds with small pfrs's. (if you only have an overpair 1/3 times, someone trying to flop a set from a 4% stack raise is losing a lot of money.)

limping:

better implied odds



basically raising them, with position mostly, gets better as stacks get deeper (as do most all position raises).

FWIW you could have just done a little math on your own using your own assumptions and avoided the need for this thread entirely.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

Once again you prove that you are a jackass. You couldve avoided your response entirely if you had really ignored me like you promised you would.

I put the question out there to get other peoples opinions. Especially people who DO raise these pairs. They may have reasons for doing it that I hadnt considered which would make me and anyone else reading this thread a better player.

But I forgot that you know everything already. Why do you even read this board? Just go out and take all the money and stop harrassing up commonfolk.

Your obnoxiousness and assinine behaviour never ceases to amaze me.

[snappo]

[ QUOTE ]

Once again you prove that you are a jackass. You couldve avoided your response entirely if you had really ignored me like you promised you would.

I put the question out there to get other peoples opinions. Especially people who DO raise these pairs. They may have reasons for doing it that I hadnt considered which would make me and anyone else reading this thread a better player.

But I forgot that you know everything already. Why do you even read this board? Just go out and take all the money and stop harrassing up commonfolk.

Your obnoxiousness and assinine behaviour never ceases to amaze me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why the hostile response? fimbulwinter took the time to give you an entire list of solid reasons to raise medium pocket pairs preflop. IMO his response was the most informative of them all. Why insult him for giving you a helpful answer to your question?

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Once again you prove that you are a jackass. You couldve avoided your response entirely if you had really ignored me like you promised you would.

I put the question out there to get other peoples opinions. Especially people who DO raise these pairs. They may have reasons for doing it that I hadnt considered which would make me and anyone else reading this thread a better player.

But I forgot that you know everything already. Why do you even read this board? Just go out and take all the money and stop harrassing up commonfolk.

Your obnoxiousness and assinine behaviour never ceases to amaze me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why the hostile response? fimbulwinter took the time to give you an entire list of solid reasons to raise medium pocket pairs preflop. IMO his response was the most informative of them all. Why insult him for giving you a helpful answer to your question?

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you read the last sentence? Hes mocking me and hes an [censored] who has nothing better to do. Its annoying and Im fed up with it. I dont care how much he knows about poker or how much he thinks he knows. He still an [censored] who Ive done absolutely nothing to.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just compare the EV's:

raising:

added EV of hitting set (easier to get stack in on bloated pot)
EV of getting to make continuation bet on flop (against certain/most opponents flop continuation bets are +EV with no cards at all)
added EV of folding best hand (you raise 44 and 55-jj play for set value)
added EV/shania of destroying implied odds with small pfrs's. (if you only have an overpair 1/3 times, someone trying to flop a set from a 4% stack raise is losing a lot of money.)

limping:

better implied odds



basically raising them, with position mostly, gets better as stacks get deeper (as do most all position raises).

FWIW you could have just done a little math on your own using your own assumptions and avoided the need for this thread entirely.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

Once again you prove that you are a jackass. You couldve avoided your response entirely if you had really ignored me like you promised you would.

I put the question out there to get other peoples opinions. Especially people who DO raise these pairs. They may have reasons for doing it that I hadnt considered which would make me and anyone else reading this thread a better player.

But I forgot that you know everything already. Why do you even read this board? Just go out and take all the money and stop harrassing up commonfolk.

Your obnoxiousness and assinine behaviour never ceases to amaze me.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. i can see the subjects of the threads you post. that's all i need.

2. the reason i posted here is that i saw the other responses and wanted to provide a correct framework for looking at the situation. remember, like i said before, new players have a hard time filtering the good from the bad.

3. what is your level of education? i ask this because you very often post simple mathmatical problems couched as poker questions and then cannot do the math when asked to. this can be answered with a simple EV calcualtion, just like the one i had to do for you in the KK thread (how you got your answer, i don't know, but i can't see how you could screw the math up that bad). If you can't do 12th grade level math, then you probably shouldn't discuss some of the hands posted here because much of their analysis lies in doing the math. If you cannot, there is no shame in grabbing an algebra textbook and reviewing, it will make you a better poker player and a better person.

I'll leave your thread alone. I almost want to unblock you to see your response to this. almost.

fim

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Once again you prove that you are a jackass. You couldve avoided your response entirely if you had really ignored me like you promised you would.

I put the question out there to get other peoples opinions. Especially people who DO raise these pairs. They may have reasons for doing it that I hadnt considered which would make me and anyone else reading this thread a better player.

But I forgot that you know everything already. Why do you even read this board? Just go out and take all the money and stop harrassing up commonfolk.

Your obnoxiousness and assinine behaviour never ceases to amaze me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why the hostile response? fimbulwinter took the time to give you an entire list of solid reasons to raise medium pocket pairs preflop. IMO his response was the most informative of them all. Why insult him for giving you a helpful answer to your question?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for noticing.

fim

[edge]

[ QUOTE ]
added EV of hitting set (easier to get stack in on bloated pot)
EV of getting to make continuation bet on flop (against certain/most opponents flop continuation bets are +EV with no cards at all)
added EV of folding best hand (you raise 44 and 55-jj play for set value)
added EV/shania of destroying implied odds with small pfrs's. (if you only have an overpair 1/3 times, someone trying to flop a set from a 4% stack raise is losing a lot of money.)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good list. I should add that I almost always raise small pairs only when I'm in position. I don't like opening with 22 UTG in a 6-max game, but I'll sometimes raise a limper or two when I'm on the button. Basically, I just like raising in position, and as long as the cards are playable, I may go for it.