KJs on button - well played or did I outhink myself?

jon_keck · #1 01-24-2005, 09:28 PM

MP is LPP SB is LAP.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO (poster) checks, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, BB folds, MP2 calls, CO folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, MP2 calls, Hero raises, SB calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (11.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

The situation reminded me of an example hand in ssh about playing for an overcall when you're either way ahead or way behind. Do you think that was applicable here, or would you have jammed the pot?

__Q__ · #2 01-24-2005, 09:47 PM

I think you played that hand right on each street.

But I think the reason that you don't want to raise isn't for overcalls, but because you have a weak hand. What is scary is when MP2 bet with that second 2 hitting the board. What is odd was that up till that point, he had shown no agression. Only you and the SB had shown agression. I think there is a very good chance he has made trips playing some crap hand with a 2 in it. I would procede with caution.

Hojglad · #3 01-24-2005, 09:50 PM

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What is odd was that up till that point, he had shown no agression. Only you and the SB had shown agression. I think there is a very good chance he has made trips playing some crap hand with a 2 in it. I would procede with caution.

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With top pair and a good kicker, I often use the board pairing as a scare raise. That being said, it seems sort of unlikely that someone would play a hand with a 2 in it for 3 bets preflop. I wouldn't put it past them, though. I'd venture to guess that YHIG here a vast majority of the time, raise the river for value.

Reef · #4 01-24-2005, 09:57 PM

call down and mark MP as an impatient fishy after he flips over A2.

just a guess

edit: Why in the heck wouldn't a 2 or 77 check raise the turn?

__Q__ · #5 01-24-2005, 10:16 PM

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call down and mark MP as an impatient fishy after he flips over A2.

just a guess

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Exactly. It just feels like this guy has no idea what he's doing. If he was a maniac, he would have put bets and raises in before the turn. I think he tried to limp in. Then when it got raised and reraised he wouldn't abandon the bet he put in the pot. Its seems like he is really passive. Then when that 2 hit, his bet was so out of nowhere that he must have made a strong hand. If he had any sense he would have check raised here.

It probably is a bad idea for me to put so much faith in my read, but I'm fairly confident that that's what happened. People just don't bet out of nowhere like that. People usually don't bet like this unless they can beat top pair.

Anyway, when trying to make reads like this, it is silly to put too much faith in them. Ultimately, people could have anything. Thats why I call down.

I feel a little more comfortable with the river. The flush is unlikely, so I think the J improves your hand, but, you still don't want to raise. SB is mostlikely going to call, if you raise, you are going to force him out of the pot. If MP2 reraises, then it means your beat. So by raising on the river, you don't gain anything. By calling, you risk one bet to win two. By raising, you risk 2 bets to win 2 bets, or even worse, if you are reraised, you risk 3 bets to win 3.

Hojglad · #6 01-24-2005, 10:28 PM

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I feel a little more comfortable with the river. The flush is unlikely, so I think the J improves your hand, but, you still don't want to raise. SB is mostlikely going to call, if you raise, you are going to force him out of the pot. If MP2 reraises, then it means your beat. So by raising on the river, you don't gain anything. By calling, you risk one bet to win two. By raising, you risk 2 bets to win 2 bets, or even worse, if you are reraised, you risk 3 bets to win 3.

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To a certain extent, I agree with this line of reasoning. I just can't see a lot of hands with a 2 in them going for 3 bets pre-flop. With the exception of 22 of course - in which case you just tip your hat and say "nh."

__Q__ · #7 01-24-2005, 10:40 PM

It is important to remember though, that MP2 never called 3bets. He limped in with the first bet, and then the raise and the reraise occured after that. He called for only two more bets. Actually, a relatively good player, if Playing A2s might call 2 more bets under those circumstances. However, I don't think MP2 is a good player, because I hate his turn bet.

In this level game though, you find all kinds of people, who, if they put money in the pot early on, they will under no circumstances fold. Had he been in late position and seeen the bet and the raise infront of him, maybe he would have folded. But lots of players at this level, will call down with anything if they've already put money in the pot.

Hojglad · #8 01-24-2005, 10:42 PM

Like I said, I can't disagree with your line of reasoning. I just hate to think that there is a two out there. At least you can use him as an ATM for the remainder of the session. Like Q says, I guess, call the river and expect to see something stupid.

jon_keck · #9 01-24-2005, 11:08 PM

MP2 shows [ 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ] two pairs, kings and twos.
Hero shows [ K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ] two pairs, kings and jacks.
SB doesn't show [ 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ] two pairs, nines and twos.

Turns out he was trickier than I gave him credit for. He started trying more moves like that after this hand, but up til that point he had been completely passive. I saw him check/call til the river with tp/tk holding AQ. The other time I saw him come alive was when he caught a straight on the river a few hands before this.

Regardless of results, after hearing your comments I'm content with the way I played it. Thanks for the input.