Beginner's game?

[Rosencrantz1]

Sounds like maybe there's some interest. Cool. Let me look into setting up a private room (NL would be fine) on pokerroom.com and then I'll post again with a suggested time and all the info.

Cheers.

[Student]

Thanks for your detailed reply! I can't say I've investigated all the avenues opened to me by your post, but I have spent quite a bit of time trying.

Someone else had nay-sayed Hellmuth's book, and I'd come to something of the same opinion. For me it was that the examples didn't really hit me close to my heart, and that suggested maybe they were somewhat lacking. I enjoy Hellmuth as a TV player (a real character), but perhaps he's not being totally frank or simply lacks the communication finese needed to teach the uninformed.

Although I viewed the acronyms in the linkages you gave me, I must admit I'm not real sure which books you're talking about with some of them. Here are some I have:

1. "Doyle Brunson's Super System" (mine is the 1979 copyright, 2nd edition and 2nd printing). It's an attractive copy, but too advanced for me presently.

2. Krieger, "Hold'em Excellence." It has a fine table of opening hands, based on Early, Middle and Late Positions. I've made an effort to play by these tables (suited and uns)to date.

3. Miller et al, "Small Stakes Hold'em." I found the tables for Tight and Loose tables opening hands, and intend to study them vigorously.

4. Hilger, "Internet Texas Hold'em." Has 200 sample hands, and seems to explain them in terms not a foreign language for me.

5. Slansky, "Tournament Poker" and "Hold'em Poker", both "for Advanced Players." I suspect this second book is one you'd referred me to. I expect both of these books will be mostly over my head presently.

6. Sklansky, "The Theory of Poker."

7. Cloutier et al, "Championship Hold'em."

8. Harrington et al, "Harrington on Hold'em." Has a tournament orientation.

9. Schoonmaker, "The Psychology of Poker."

10. Feeney, "Inside the Poker Mind."

I plan on reading all of these books, but not in any particular order. I might read the treatment one author does on a certain topic, and then scan quickly what attracts my interest in the other books. Now, here's where some help is needed. From what you know in your own experience, which of these books should have a higher priority for me presently? Don't forget I've been playing only 2 weeks, a true beginner!

I plan alternating between reading and playing, so play will make ideas identified in reading easier to understand, and to make play more profitable. Presently I play 5/10 NL HE on PokerStars, limited to freeplay. I've done pretty much the same thing a number of times. I start with 1,000 free chips and strive to triple it. Lately I rarely strike out with the 1,000 chips, but last night I played in one game for 1.75 hours (dropping as low as 250 chips), before I finally went out with 3,315 chips. Now I have over 13,000 free chips.

My opening hands? Not as tight as I think I'd need to be in cash games. I'm in 30 to 60% of the hands, with an average probably about 45%. But I see 7 or 8 opponents going into a pot, and then there's me; many times my 4/5un will develop something nice on the flop. So I bet 10 chips to see the flop, defending what I'm doing on the basis of pot odds (I suppose). Often I go over the 3,000 chip mark on the basis of one truly big hand. It might be that a straight, flush and full house (not very visible to some) are all in one hand, and I have the full house, beating both of the other fine hands. I seem to get real aggressive then, and I spend a bit of time figuring out what my opponents seem to have. The more I play, the more interested I am in posting notes to my opponents, as they reveal themselves. The nice thing about last night's game was some pretty good players were in attendence. This game has a maximum buyin of 2,000 chips, and I come in with 1,000 chips; that must be worth something, eh?

I've just started a process of getting money into my PokerStar account. They say it will be next Monday before the money is credited. I hope to play in 1/2 cents NL HE games first. The two concepts knowledge and money management will be at war. Only when I have 200 times the Big Blind for my next level of play (5/10 cents), or $20.00 in profits, will I consider the move to 5/10 cents possible for me. That gives me both the new $20 in profits and the original monies as backup for my next level. Next I'd aspire to 10/25 cents, and that requires $2 x 25 (cents) = $50 to fulfill my money management schedule. I'd actually have about $75 behind me then. The steps that follow are 25/50 cents, 50 cents/ $1, $1/2, $2/4, $3/6, and $5/10.

I'm far more interested in tournaments, and so I very much doubt I'd actually go beyond the $1.00 Big Blind game above, before tournaments would become the overwhelming consideration. I think I'm going to like internet tournaments more than local casino games. I live where 5 different tribes have games within 25 miles of my home. That's why I haven't put Caro's book on tells into my library yet, and that my seller didn't have that book in his list of great buys when I made my big purchase contributed too.

I've watched play in the 1/2 cents games. I can see these are tighter games, even though blinds only cost perhaps 18 or 21 cents per hour. Occasionally a pot will exceed $1, even for a game with such tiny blinds! But I'm preparing for another important learning environment, once I start cash play. It shall be an adventure, and I'll measure progress by the level I'm able to play in. It's kind of like working for a company; a person can expect to be promoted to their level of incompetence...

Dave

[PoBoy321]

Well, no one's going to say that you're lax in learning to play poker. That's also an excellent list of books that you have at your disposal. Use them.

First and foremost, I would suggest that you read, re-read and re-reread Theory of Poker. The first thing you need to do is learn how to play poker, then you can learn Hold 'Em, 7-stud, Omaha, whatever. Theory of Poker, however, will teach you concepts that are important in any game.

Second, I would recommend Small Stakes Hold 'Em (although it applies to limit games, I think that it has useful information for no-limit games as well). Finish with Hold 'Em Poker for Advanced Players and you should be well on your way to crushing low-limit games. Also, although I've never read it, I believe that Cloutier's book is excellent for NL Hold 'Em and you might also want to look into Pot-limit and No-limit Poker by Stewart Reuben and Bob Ciaffone. I haven't read it, but I understand that it's the definitive book for no-limit cash games.

Super System is an excellent book to read, but don't try to apply Brunson's techniques in the low stakes games since they work best against smart, thinking players who you won't find at the low-limits.

You said that you are in the process of depositing money into Poker Stars. Generally, the rule of thumb is to have at least 1,000X BB for whatever no-limit stakes you're playing, and since you're starting off in the .01-.02 games, you should have more than enough to cover it. Just realize that the .01-.02 games are tighter than the play money games but still incredibly loose, so you'll experience a higher variance than at higher stakes. If you play tight and keep getting your money in with the best of it, though, you'll come out a winner.

One final note. You said that you seem to be playing 30-60% of hands in a given game. This is way too high. I think that if you asked most players here what percentage of flops they're seeing, it's probably closer to 20%. By reading the books you already have, you'll realize how important it is to tighten up and you will do well.

[Student]

I really appreciate how you've helped me to set my reading priorities! There is so very much to do, and so little time.

It seems logical that I should be trying to get some sort of fundamental understanding of poker, so that all other learning will have been built on a solid foundation. I have always been one who cares mostly about the "why" of things, rather then a bunch of isolated (and hence meaningless, facts). But I am a person in retirement, and starting from scratch will certainly be a challenge. Then too, to be happy I don't have to become a Moneymaker, although I'd be unhappy if I ended up a constant money loser.

I realize there are many statistics that one can gather about their own performance. If one gets good enough at gathering stats, and knows where the pitfalls lie in terms of personal performance as measured by stats, then one can attempt to cure bad habits early. I also realize there is software concerning stats. BUT. There is the matter of putting the cart before the horse. I must learn to make money with my play, and that isn't going to be easy!

It would appear my tiny attempts to tighten up my game, although they have lead to a modicum of success in free games, aren't enough. If I can expect profitability with cash games, even the most modest of them, I'll have to drop the number of hands I'm willing to get into down sharply. Deceptive indeed is the stat PokerStars maintains concerning the average percentage of players playing in each hand. I see numbers like 70%, 80% and even higher. Perhaps I'm simply not interpreting this stat correctly, that it isn't what I thought it was. Yet I have an intuition that my best results happened when I was patient enough to wait for the eventual good opportunity in a hand.

Thanks again!

Dave

[Girchuck]

Actually, the pokerroom offers very high play money limits
(Like 500-1000)
The people on these high limits will be a tad better than lower limits, because you need to be a winning player to start with 1000 in play money and accumulate enough to play in 500-1000 game. If you have some time, try to accumulate ~100000 in play money and sit in these big limit play money tables. Look for players with big balances, because the min buy-in is 5000 which is easy to get even for a monkey.

[Seymour Phlops]

I couldn't disagree more.
For kicks, I sat in for a few minutes at a 5/10 HE table on Party Poker. Every hand was capped pre-flop, with EVERY player in the hand. Then all the betting was capped.
This is real? How can you learn anything here? Everyone bets the cap, regardless of what they're holding, hoping to win a big pot if they get lucky...knowing that NOTHING is at risk. How can you compare this to an actual game?

If you wanna know how realistic these tables are...just look at the avg pot. In a REAL 5/10 game, the avg pot will hover around $40-$50...whereas in the play money game, the avg 5/10 pot was $250!!!

The ugly truth? If you wanna learn, you have to risk some money...

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
Playing in the play money games is the least emotionally painful way to learn that suckouts are +EV when they happen to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

BINGO! Give the man a prize.

That alone makes playing playmoney worthwhile until you're convinced that your opponents are NOT making it tougher for you to win chips. (You hear an amazing number of people complain that they can't win low-limit real-money poker because you can't get anyone off a hand or get respect for your raises. Of course the same is true in spades for play money, although no one bothers to complain because it's so obvious.)

Once you realize that their bad play is +EV for you in the long run, there's probably not much reason to keep playing play money. Move to $0.02/$0.04 or whatever.

[jayboo]

i learned how to play mostly in the free sng's. they are free but if you lose youre gone so there is incentive to play good. People actually do try to play good in these and for me they were invaluable to my learning process. gl