TT bet into flopped overpair

illini99 · #1 09-18-2004, 11:50 PM

This hand occurred after the rebuy portion of a PS $10 rebuy & add-on. Please comment.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (9 handed) converter

Hero (t6795)
Button (t5950)
SB (t4130)
BB (t11825)
UTG (t2750)
UTG+1 (t4100)
MP1 (t10010)
MP2 (t3150)
MP3 (t5760)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls t150, 2 folds, MP2 calls t150, 1 fold, Hero raises to t600, 3 folds, UTG calls t450, MP2 calls t450.

Flop: (t2025) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets t6195 (All-In), UTG calls t2150 (All-In), MP2 folds.

Turn: (t10370) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t10370) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t10370
Main Pot: t6325 (t6325), between Hero and UTG.
Pot 2: t4045 (t4045), returned to Hero.

Edge34 · #2 09-19-2004, 12:50 AM

Hey illini,

If either opponent had you covered, I'd say moving all-in here is a bad play. Of course, with the stack sizes where they are and the size of the pot on the flop, its probably best to make either the "check and give up" or your "move them all-in" line your choice of action. I assume that if either opponent calls you, however, they're likely beating you. I hope that runner runner clubs gave you the flush, but I imagine it was a bit of a post-flop suckout.

In short - with deeper stacks for your opponents, slow down. The way it is, if you're going to play it, this is the wayu to do it, IMHO.

-Edge

Annie Duke · #3 09-19-2004, 01:42 AM

I really don't like the all-in bet here. With two people to act behind you you can make a bet that exercises much better stack control. Bet an amount that makes you look pot comitted--say 1100 or 1200. The pot has a little over 1800 in it so betting around 1k or so is a reasonable bet here. If the small stack of 2700 goes all in here you might be pot comitted and have to call against the one opponent. However if he moves in and the other person calls you can get off the hand for very little commitment. If the larger stack moves in you can fold since you look pot comitted but aren't really against the 3150. His moving in against you when you ahve him covered will signal that youa re surely beat and it becomes an easy fold and you have risked little for the information.

Stack control is an extremely important concept in NL hold'em. It is very often not correct to bet the whole pot after the flop. Betting half to 3/4 of the pot is often a better strategy--one that is one of the aspects of Gus Hansen's game that makes him so amazing. You could have bet half the pot, found out what you needed to know and risked much fewer chips for the info here. It is hard for stacks that small to move in on you on a bluff here since it is unlikely they will risk their whole tournament on a bluff against someone who looks rather pot committed. This means that it is a great information gathering tool since only a big hand will move against your bet.

Obviously I give the caveat that you need to know your opponent here to know whether they think a flush draw is a huge hand here. The other nice thing about the smaller bet is that it encourages a hand like a flush draw to flat call and take the price instead of moving in. It is less attractive to the flush draw to move in when they can take over 3 to 1 on the call.

Hope that all makes sense!

Annie

JARID · #4 09-19-2004, 03:36 AM

Annie,

Nice to see you venture into the MTT talk. Conceptually everything you said makes sense. However, in this particular hand, say you give him the price to make the call instead of moving, then what do you do on the turn?

Its a blank. You gave them the price to call for the flush draw, but what if they are slowplaying trips? I guess my question is, if the turn is a blank and they just called, whats your action from there?

Thanks-
Jarid