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  #1  
Old 06-06-2005, 04:53 PM
Sarge85 Sarge85 is offline
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Default Noobs - Turn Off Poker Tracker

I put this in another post - but wanted to get a over all feel of the board.

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I know how to analyze my hands with the poker tracker and how to turn it on over a game but exactly what and how do I take advantage of this program specifically?


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[/ QUOTE ]


*Warning* - Anti Poker Tracker Post.

Here’s what I would do. -- Forget about Poker Tracker.

Why?

1) If you just got it – you simply don’t have enough hands to tell you if you are playing “correctly” or not. You need tens of thousands of hands before you can make adjustments.

2) As far as when you are playing online - I think you are better having it “off” as well. You are not going to have any significant amount of hands on any one player early on.

I also believe as a whole, the forum puts way to much emphasis on these stats in the first place. When I see posts that start off with: Player is 35% V$IP/15% PFR – LAG over 50ish hands - followed by a hand that HERO overplayed (or maybe not overplayed, but was shown a “legit” hand, I’m not that surprised.

It is sort of ironic. We’ll get players that post their Poker Tracker stats over 50K hands, looking for feedback only to receive a chorus of “Sample Size To Small” from the fourm.

However we’ll get those players that scream sample size error, posting hands where they are making a “read” on a villain based on a uber small sample size.

Try making hand written notes in the Notes Box on Party Poker. Your own observations are exponentially more valuable. Seeing a player call down with Ace high, or second pair, or raising as a pure bluff – and then noting it is vastly superior to what PT will give you: 35%/15%/ AF 2.3 - 75 hands. Those 75 hands could mean anything – seeing a player call you down with bottom pair once or twice is HUGE.

I’ve been playing at TruePoker – (non PT supported, but has a notes feature) – Here are some of my notes off the top of my head:

Loose/Fishy
Will call down to river with sh*t
Will make “moves” on pot with scare cards
Tight
Could be 2+2er

Don’t get me wrong. PT does have value. When you have 15-20 instances of how you play 88 or certain suited connectors, then you can draw some conclusions. When/if you datamine and have several hundred hands on players (and visual hand histories) then you can more accurately determine LAG, Maniac, TAG, etc.

Ultimately my suggestion is this:

1. Leave Pokertracker off for a month. Simply import hands – don’t look at numbers, and don’t use GameTime/Player View. Use your own notes and solid poker skills.
2. If you are truly new to the game – read Winning Low Limit Hold’em by Lee Jones. If you have some back ground, and reasonably solid PF skills – skip WLLH and read Small Stakes Hold’em by Ed Miller.
3. Respond to hands – don’t be afraid to be wrong.
4. Post your own hands – with out results and only up to the point where you have a question on action

Good Luck

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
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  #2  
Old 06-06-2005, 05:00 PM
CallMeIshmael CallMeIshmael is offline
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Default Re: Noobs - Turn Off Poker Tracker

Though, on the whole, I like your point. I find this:

[ QUOTE ]
It is sort of ironic. We’ll get players that post their Poker Tracker stats over 50K hands, looking for feedback only to receive a chorus of “Sample Size To Small” from the fourm.

However we’ll get those players that scream sample size error, posting hands where they are making a “read” on a villain based on a uber small sample size.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be vastly exagerated to help your point.
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  #3  
Old 06-06-2005, 05:14 PM
Sarge85 Sarge85 is offline
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Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 604
Default Re: Noobs - Turn Off Poker Tracker

[ QUOTE ]
Though, on the whole, I like your point. I find this:

[ QUOTE ]
It is sort of ironic. We’ll get players that post their Poker Tracker stats over 50K hands, looking for feedback only to receive a chorus of “Sample Size To Small” from the fourm.

However we’ll get those players that scream sample size error, posting hands where they are making a “read” on a villain based on a uber small sample size.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be vastly exagerated to help your point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps it's more of a trend I see in Micors, but it definately rears its head time to time here.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
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  #4  
Old 06-06-2005, 05:49 PM
Aaron51_lz Aaron51_lz is offline
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Default Re: Noobs - Turn Off Poker Tracker

50k Hands is an exaggeration I believe. However if I posted my stats after 5k hands my sample would be too low, but if I said a villan had X/Y/Z stats after 100 hands, they dominate how the hand should have been played out.

I agree with the poster and have often thought about this, because if I know my stats aren't reliable with 5k then 100 is totally meaningless.
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  #5  
Old 06-06-2005, 05:58 PM
CallMeIshmael CallMeIshmael is offline
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Default Re: Noobs - Turn Off Poker Tracker

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with the poster and have often thought about this, because if I know my stats aren't reliable with 5k then 100 is totally meaningless.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was referring to.

Things like VPIP and PFR are VERY accurate after 5k hands.


People who say "you can't learn anything after 5k hands" are dead wrong.

You cant learn anything about winrate. But, that doesnt mean your VPIP is very close to its true rate after 5k hands.


After 100 hands, a 1SD about the mean for someone who has a VPIP of 20, is +- 4%.

Now, that isnt great, but, it sure as hell lets us know that his VPIP isnt 42.
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  #6  
Old 06-06-2005, 06:01 PM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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Default Re: Noobs - Turn Off Poker Tracker

My computer had been shutting down nightly with playerview and pokertracker going. I have about 350,000 hands in a couple of dbases and I think that it was working the computer too hard. It was usually when I had flopped full and it was bet and raised into me when my computer would simply shut down and I would win my 1.5bb portion of a 25bb pot.

I have been playing without either of them the last couple of weeks. A lot of names I recognize and I have auto import notes that I read on about 7 of the players at the table. I don't get the new folks at the table, but I can usually tell pretty quickly what I am up against.

I have felt like Luke Skywalker in Star Wars with Kenobi saying "Use the Force Luke". I have taken all of the stuff off and am trying to play a game by natual read and feel. I have stubbed my toe a couple of times, but it has actually been pretty refreshing.
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  #7  
Old 06-06-2005, 06:01 PM
Catt Catt is offline
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Default Re: Noobs - Turn Off Poker Tracker

While I admire the intent of your post, I don't agree with the conclusion. The problem is not in using PokerTracker - it is in using it improperly. If you allow PokerTracker to "relieve" you of being observant and taking notes on players' post-flop play, you are misusing it. If you allow your own play to be guided by someone's PT stats after a small number of hands, you are misusing it. I think newbies and old hands alike would benefit from using PokerTracker, but everyone needs to understand how to use it properly. Just saying don't use it is akin to throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
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  #8  
Old 06-06-2005, 06:01 PM
SeaEagle SeaEagle is offline
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Default Re: Noobs - Turn Off Poker Tracker

I'll give you the argument about using PT to adjust your play. A lot of people put too much emphasis on their short-term stats.

However, I'd be lost without PT/GT+. No matter how good I'm taking notes, it's not the same as knowing someone has put in money in 35% of 75 hands. I would guess I have never had a streak so hot that I put money in 26 of 75 hands, or at least not often enough that I wouldn't wager large amounts against it happening.

Don't get me wrong. I take notes as well. I especially find the aggression stats to be misleading and almost always try to make a note whether the 2 PFA means super weak/tight or truly aggressive, or if a c/r on the turn means something different than a c/r on the flop.

But, especially for a multi-tabler, those VPIP and PFR numbers are pure gold, even with 75 hands.
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  #9  
Old 06-06-2005, 06:04 PM
AliasMrJones AliasMrJones is offline
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Default Re: Noobs - Turn Off Poker Tracker

I tell anyone who asks about PT that it is very much worth the money, BUT I also tell them that the stats about winrate aren't worthwhile for a long time.

What IS worthwhile in PT early on is the hand replayer. In fact, if a beginner only used PT to review hands post-playing session I think it would be worth the money. Perhaps you should change this to Ignore your stats rather than Turn off Poker Tracker.
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  #10  
Old 06-06-2005, 06:45 PM
TripleH68 TripleH68 is offline
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Default Re: Noobs - Turn Off Poker Tracker

[ QUOTE ]
What IS worthwhile in PT early on is the hand replayer. In fact, if a beginner only used PT to review hands post-playing session I think it would be worth the money.

[/ QUOTE ]
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