How deep, before you fold AA, if ever? Am I just a pussy? Probably.

[LuvDemNutz]

[ QUOTE ]
I was playing 10-25 nl at foxwoods, this game isnt held usually, however this was a tournament weekend so it was there.
I have KQ on the button with about $20k
and this lil weenie lil sh*t with about $15k makes it 500 to go in MP. Now this looked to me who did not want any action at all, so i figured he might have sometin like 10-10 and just wanted the blinds. I raised to like 3k. He raised to 7k,I pushed(horrible push but watever,lets assume i was drunk.)He thinks for like an eternity, and mucks AhAs face up. I was just shocked, I mean folding AA preflop is the definition of "lil weenie scared sh*t" but folding AA preflop FACE UP!! I started laughing and said..."good fold, i had 3 of those guys."
It just seems like committing poker suicide, folding AA preflop FACE UP!!!
Guess what happens in the following few hours, every1 puts him all in on everyhand they're in and he folds, until he's down to like 2k and then he flops the top boat, and on the river he has like 1k left and the other guy pushes..he thinks for like 5 min before he calls, saying "U have quads dont u"

[/ QUOTE ]

Can this possibly be true??!!?? If so, that is abslotuley, positively the most pathetic thing I have ever heard in my life. It's one thing to fold the rockets PF when you don't feel like gambling your whole stack. But to fold them AFTER you've already put half your stack in the middle!!??
[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[BPPoker]

This is one of the most insane posts I have ever read. The reason is that this guy is DEAD SERIOUS! If you dont feel comfortable going all in with the best possible hand pre flop then you don't have to stop playin poker as a whole but definately stop playing at these levels.

To answer your question NO I would never fold AA pre flop in cash game.

[Rotating Rabbit]

[ QUOTE ]
There are some times when you might consider folding AA preflop.

Those would be, when you think the game is crooked and you are being set up.

[/ QUOTE ]

...end of story.

Folding aces preflop is no different from taking a pile of your chips and passing them to the guy next to you for free.

[just2ska]

WOW

[RobbyD]

I strongly suggest limit hold-em.

[meow_meow]

When I read this post, I assumed every single response would be of the "never, never, never" variety. I cannot believe how many people actually think folding AA in any ring game situation might have merit (excepting the contrived example with all the dead cards).

I cannot imagine a situation in which I would think twice about calling all-in preflop with aces, except for two: 1)my entire life-savings is on the table. 2)My stack is large enough to for me to live a life of luxury for the rest of forever (say 10M+). Guess what though, I stand up long before either of those hypotheticals can happen.

Just to reiterate, if your stack is large enough that you aren't willing to put it in as a 4:1 favorite, what the hell are you doing at the table?

[ML4L]

Hey jump et al.,

I wanted to post this as soon as I read your thread, but I figured I would wait a little to let the flamers flame and everyone pile on. Now, it's time to set the record straight...

The vast majority of people in this thread are looking at the situation incorrectly. The general assumption behind making decisions at a poker table is that players want to maximize EV. Period. Ideally, a player would be EV neutral and be OK with flipping a coin for his stack at any given time. And, I think that it's a safe assumption that, if you are not willing to flip a coin for your stack at any given time, you will not be able to make the plays necessary to maximize your EV...

Clearly, this poster is an exception to the general case. His top concern is minimizing variance. His question was not, "Is folding AA preflop +EV," as everyone knows that it is not. His [implicit] question was, "Does the fact that I would fold AA to an all-in preflop mean that I shouldn't be sitting in this game?" The answer to that, from an EV perspective, is: not necessarily.

I contend that, in a very soft game, it is absolutely possible to maintain an edge in the game even if you were to pass up situations where you could push a relatively large edge for all of your money. Depending on the texture of the game, you could employ a strategy of only playing for big money if you have the nuts (or close to it) on later streets, assuming that your opponents are not perceptive enough to know that this is your strategy. Of course, your opponents will be able to see that you are tight, but it would take time for them to know exactly HOW tight you are playing and how to take advantage of that. And, if you play position well and exercise pot-control, they're going to have a tough time taking advantage of you even if they DO realize that you only put in big money with the absolute nuts.

The ability to push every edge you are confronted with is NOT (I repeat, IS NOT) the criteron on which one should base their decision to sit in a game. The criterion is, "Given the strategy that I am employing, do I expect to make money in this game?" While in most cases, passing up edges as big as AA all-in preflop is too much to overcome, I can think of some games that I've played in where I am absolutely certain that I could have still be a winning player even if I kept every pot very small unless I had the near-nuts on the river.

So, to summarize, I (and other posters) wouldn't recommend that you play in a game in which you couldn't fathom losing your entire stack. EV-considerations aside, from a human standpoint, it generally isn't a good idea to play in a game where you are so incredibly uncomfortable that something like folding AA would cross your mind. And, I would be surprised if you could maintain much of an edge playing such a strategy. And, even if you could, if there was a 1/2 game running, I would imagine the EV of sitting there to be higher than nut-peddling the 2/5.

But, if that was the only game running or the other game had a wait, etc., and you are JUST wondering whether the fact that you would fold AA preflop makes sitting a bad idea from an EV perspective, the answer is: not necessarily.

ML4L

[gomberg]

Great post - i love poker theory...

[sniperd]

Some time ago when the 5/5 pot limit game turned into the 5/5 no limit game at Foxwoods I sort of ran into this situation. I had bought into this game for $300, a decent piece of my bankroll at the time 20% or so, but hey, I wanted to take a shot playing with "The Big Boys". Plus i play poker for a hobby, so if I lose the $300 I'm not really hurt. I just want to never have to put my own cash up to play poker, I want to keep it all strickly in my bank roll.

I had played well, and got lucky on a suck out hitting a 2 outer and ran my money up to $1200, which was a HUGE boost to my bankroll. While I was sitting there I thought, "Boy I'd love to get AA and double up". Then I started to think how I would handle losing $1200 on a hand. Gee, maybe I would try and hit a set with AA.. hm.. well, as long as it's the nuts on the river... Then it clicked in my head, "If you can't get all in pre with AA and be happy, GET THE [censored] OFF THE TABLE".

I didn't even wait for my blinds, I instantly stood up with my rack, I might have been in a hand. I remeber the young fellow on my right asked where I was going, he had seen me do well, and had out played me a few times, clearly wanting my money [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I told him, "I think I'm gonna check out the one three stud" He asked, "One hundred, Three hundred?" Squinting to see the board as that's not a game they spread. I replied, "Nope, just one three, I'm playing way over my head here, and I think I need to get drunk!" We had a good laugh, and I left.

If you can't get all in pre with AA and be happy, step down limits, or cash out, or whatever, but clearly you are playing over your head.

[Matt Flynn]

it's one thing to pass up a 52:48 because you're playing above your comfort level or bankroll. it is quite another to give up a 4+:1. get out of that game asap.

suppose four people limp to you with AA and $500. field has you covered. you want to reduce variance. what do you do?

answer: put in a monster raise, like to $70. they still have odds to draw to sets, but not by much and they may breakeven anyway if they push overpairs. the most amazing thing is people still call in loose lower-limit games.

matt