Weird $215 hand

hansarnic · #1 06-10-2005, 07:10 AM

First hand of Level 1.

UTG min-raises and we get four callers to me on the button with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I call and BB calls.

Flop is J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

It's checked to me. Rather stupidly I bet 180.

BB now does a weird re-raise to 450 straight and UTG pushes. Everyone else folds back to me.

Never seen either of these two before. What do you do & why?

curtains · #2 06-10-2005, 07:13 AM

Well I would check the flop like a normal person to avoid this situation. Very important not to bet yourself out of action with a hand like this. You'd be better served thinking very hard about your postflop bet than about whether you should call all the stupid raises. This situation or one similar to it comes up too often and to continually bet here you will be making a big mistake over and over again.

hansarnic · #3 06-10-2005, 07:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You'd be better served thinking very hard about your postflop bet than about whether you should call all the stupid raises. This situation or one similar to it comes up too often and to continually bet here you will be making a big mistake over and over again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree betting the flop is probably not the best line. But given the action & the texture of the flop I don't think it's that bad at all. If you are one of the callers & you make your set are you really checking with 7 to the flop on that board?? Most times I won't get CR here.

A more important reason not to bet is that the pot gets a little too bloated when I'm called even in one spot. This means if I'm betting the turn it really has to be a push. Alternative if I miss on the turn is to just take the free card & give up on the pot unless I hit.

So on balance I also prefer checking than betting, but I really don't think it's a 'big mistake'.

What about calling the re-raise? How often do you think either UTG or BB plays Ax [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] that way?

kyro · #4 06-10-2005, 07:50 AM

I think after you bet the flop, calling the raise becomes automatic.

zambonidrivr · #5 06-10-2005, 08:07 AM

what in the hell are you doing in this hand in the first place. someone flopped a set, and the other a straight draw

SNOWBALL138 · #6 06-10-2005, 08:10 AM

I think UTG would have to be totally nuts here if he didn't have JJ. If he has JJ, that brings your number of outs down to 10.

I don't think it makes a big difference what you do here. Calling is ok here b/c you have pot odds. Pushing is ok, because you have positive equity vs. 2 players. Folding is ok because you still have 850 chips if you fold, right?

hansarnic · #7 06-10-2005, 08:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
what in the hell are you doing in this hand in the first place. someone flopped a set, and the other a straight draw

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean? Why did I call PF? Why did I bet? Or why am I considering calling the push?

curtains · #8 06-10-2005, 08:37 AM

I think it is a big mistake to bet the flop. Your hand's value here derives mostly from the chance of drawing to a big hand, and almost none from the chance that you are going to bet and take the pot down right now against 4 opponents on a J96 flop. You are risking getting raised off of such a powerful draw, and this is something I hate to do.

Meanwhile the reward for betting is relatively small, if all the players fold, okay that's good, but it's not even that big a deal since checking has +EV implications as well if the turn card is good. I mean look at the hand, getting raised off of your hand is exactly what happened and exactly the reason why you don't bet this hand. If you bet and then fold to a reraise you are basically throwing away the chance of winning a monsterous pot, solely because you couldn't resist betting into 4 opponents instead of taking an extremely valuable free card.

Unless moving allin is a reasonable sized bet, you just don't bet these flops in these situations.

curtains · #9 06-10-2005, 08:42 AM

btw I would probably call the 2 raises, but it's ridiculous because I would never bet in the first place and get myself in such an unpleasant spot. Against the one check raiser you are also in a very unpleasant situation which you should have never allowed.

mosdef · #10 06-10-2005, 08:58 AM

as a lower buyin player, my first instinct while reading this is "why did he call a raise preflop with K10s?".

1. can i get confirmation that this would be a terrible preflop call at the 33s down?

2. is it in fact correct at the 215s, and if so why?