20-40 Hand at the Commerce

Sparks · #1 08-03-2004, 02:17 AM

I'm stuck two racks at the Commerce and in a pretty sour mood.

Everyone folds to the button who limps, SB calls and I call with 62 off in the BB. Flop comes 7 9 J rainbow. All check. Turn is a K, all check. River is an Ace, SB checks, I fold, button bets and SB folds.

A guy not in the hand says, "hey, that's bad etiquette to fold like that." Given my chip status at the time, I probably don't need to mention that his comment didn't go over real well with me. Anyhoo...

Was he right? All agreed it was legal, but the table seemed to be about split on whether is was "okay" for me to fold in turn like I did. Someone also said that folding in turn without a bet in front of you is not allowed at the Bike.

Thoughts? Or, a link to the thread where this is discussed. Thanks.

Sparks

Nightwish · #2 08-03-2004, 02:30 AM

Well, it's not a big deal because there's no money in the pot. However, what's the point of doing it? If you're in such a crappy mood (and trust me, I've been there myself) that you're having trouble controlling your temper and pulling these kind of amateurish moves, the best thing you can do is pick up your remaining chips and go home.

Gabe · #3 08-03-2004, 02:36 AM

It is bad etiquette and unfair to other players. Another player could object to the dealer and the dealer would ask you not to do it. If you continued a floorman would be called and he would ask you not to do it. I've never seen anyone expelled or anything, but they usually stop when a dealer or floorman asks them to.

piguy24 · #4 08-03-2004, 02:37 AM

I think throwing cards away in turn is generally not bad etiquette because it doesn't really change the outcome of the hand. However, in a 3-handed situation, I think throwing your hand into the muck makes it more likely that the button will try a steal bet. Although the SB might recognize that if he was a decent player, I still think it shouldn't be done in that situation.

andyfox · #5 08-03-2004, 02:50 AM

I don't know what the rule is at Commerce. IMO, it should be that when the action's on you and there's been no bet, your only options are to check or bet. You should not be able to fold to a check with other players yet to act.

JasonP530 · #6 08-03-2004, 06:24 AM

Someone, I forget whom, explained it very well. If anyone knows who and can give them credit, I am sure they would appreciate it. It goes something like this.

When you fold out of turn, you are giving the person at the end more information than you are giving ther person who has checked. He is not entitled to this information, which is why your folding is not right. If you were first to act, and folded, then you are ok, because all the remaining players are not affected in a way they shouldnt be by your decision. The same thing goes if you are last to act.

Sparks · #7 08-03-2004, 11:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Someone, I forget whom, explained it very well.

[/ QUOTE ]

We may need that person.

I don't see how I'm giving "more" information to any player. One player is just in better position to use the information I'm giving. In any hand at any time whether I call, check, raise or fold, I'm giving information, and those behind me have it prior to their turn while those in front of me don't. What's the difference with a fold?

I'm suspicious that the only people offended by a "fold in turn" are those with poor hands who are about to be taken advantage of by a better player, and are looking for something to complain about. Heck, I dunno.

Still curious about any clubs where the practice is in fact against the rules. Are there any?

Sparks

Garland · #8 08-03-2004, 11:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
"hey, that's bad etiquette to fold like that."

[/ QUOTE ]

He is correct, and I guess it depends on the manner of how he said it to determine if it was out of line.

I've never heard about anyone complaining about folding out of turn, and in this situation it's pretty harmless. The reason it's against the rules is because SB's decision to bet or check the river can be affected by the knowledge of your fold.

BTW, I would bet the flop or turn. I don't know if being stuck two racks is affecting proper play, but if you have absolutely nothing, you should be taking a stab at the pot once in awhile.

Garland

JimRivett · #9 08-03-2004, 12:22 PM

Someone also said that folding in turn without a bet in front of you is not allowed at the Bike.

If it's not allowed then they do a poor job of enforcing the rule! I see it done quite a bit there.

Personally I think when the action is to you, you should either bet or check, not fold. If your attitude has deteriated to the point where you are folding to a check in a multi way pot, you should consider quitting and coming back another time.

Jim

elysium · #10 08-03-2004, 12:38 PM

hi sparks

it is o.k. to fold when it is your turn to act, even if there hasn't been a bet, especially when there are others waiting to act behind you.

sometimes, you will have a hand like, 88 on a KJT9 board in a multi-way, in MP. if you are checked to, mucking can be strategically correct if you muck when checked to because any card coming off on the river will hurt you, and you just want to avoid the possibility of getting greedy when you river a 7 or 8, even though there is a miniscule risk of mucking a hand that would have won on the free showdown. you may feel as though that risk is less than the risk that you might call in the event of a 7 or 8 landing, even though you still have the option to muck in that eventuality. you see, if the 7 or 8 lands, and you are faced with having to fold to a bet with a set or bottom end, and no one calls, you may feel as though you have folded the winner, even though you folded correctly. so you fold premptively to prevent the specter of 55 or 66 from now nagging at you and perhaps weighting down the session and making you play a little less correctly than you otherwise would have. if you muck before the river, even if you find out that you mucked the winner, you still only mucked a pair of 88 and not a set or straight. that mollifies the over-all effect of having mucked the winner because it's a more common type of muck. mucking a set of straight, well, that can nag at you. also notice that in the event that the river bet isn't called, mucking the 88 on the turn doesn't cause the nagging sensation to manifest.

so, mucking when checked to can be strategically correct when it helps to remove the risk of throwing your session off, and that risk is possibly greater than the risk of the effect of knowing that you mucked the winner, due to the miniscuality of the possibility.

of course, you could just grow up.