Last post (tenacity)

[J.R.]

sorry for spamming, I run bad and play bad too. These seemed horrendous in retrospect (subtle tilt?) but the more I think about them I dunno. Do I need more tenacity as 3-bettor with possible chop outs? Are these as bad as I initially think?

MP like 51/8/1.9/45
BB like 30/17/2.2/35

I think I set this fold up by playing weakly preflop, easy cap? But what range is a reasonble BB 3-betting here 3-way?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, MP calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 7 BB


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UTG 30/15/2.1/35

The flop sucks, no? But what does a 15 pfr play like this? Is he looking to 3-bet or is this a weak feeler bet?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (12.40 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, CO folds, BB folds.

Turn: (7.20 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8.20 BB

[imported_CaseClosed326]

This is what I usualy do. I don't like it, and I don't know what there is that can be done about it.

[Surfbullet]

hand1:

I think a turn fold is good. The villain has 3bet 2 opponents preflop, and led into 2 opponents on both streets - I'd say the lowest part of his range here is AK/AQ, there's very little you are ahead of and when you are behind you are way behind.

Hand2:

Sure, the flop isn't so palatable, but you have great odds so you peel one off.
On the turn you are HU against the UTG raiser - how many UTG raising hands benefit from this board? Additionally, how many UTG raising hands that don't benefit from this board are you ahead of?
Nearly all of them.

I raise this turn - we'd like hands with live outs like KQ to fold, but if they don't that's fine. I take a free showdown unless I improve, as almost no worse hands will call a river bet after the turn raise. Also, I fold to a 3bet.

Surf

[pyroponic]

Hand #1 looks standard. Hand #2 it depends on your read. If you put him on a pair JJ or small (which is probably what he has), you could raise the flop to make it HU and take a free card/showdown if you choose. Although you'd probably be looking at a 3-bet on the flop, so a lot of the times I take your line. Keep in mind you did 3-bet preflop, so you're representing a big pair yourself.

[ISF]

Hand 1: I think this is a usually a good fold.
Hand 2: I think a call down would be profitable here. I dont raise as if he is bluffing with a weaker ace, or KJ type of hand they usually bet the river even if they miss.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: I think this is a usually a good fold.
Hand 2: I think a call down would be profitable here. I dont raise as if he is bluffing with a weaker ace, or KJ type of hand they usually bet the river even if they miss.

[/ QUOTE ]

In hand 2 the pot is so big that we want him to fold hands that have live outs - there are a few hands (like KJ) that we have dominated, but the rest are drawing like to 6 outs and we'd like to take down the pot here. If the pot were small encouraging bluffs would be more useful.

Surf

[MAxx]

sometimes i play # 1 the same. sometimes I raise flop.

#2 - you asked what does a 15% lead here. A pocket pair would kinda make sense. It could be overcards giveing a feeler bet as you say. It could be a monster looking for action.

[J.R.]

sorry I was unclear in Hand 2, I meant what does he lead that I should raise against, and is that enough of a percentage of his hands to justify a flop raise? I have a lingering sense I screwed the pooch on the flop here.

[ISF]

The point is that they will usually bet the river even if they miss, and hence pay that bet either way if we just call the turn. So we still collect two bets from them when we are ahead when we dont raise the turn, and we will often pay less when behind by not raising, as we are usually behind here more often then not.
You also risk getting threebet out of the pot by a 1010 hand that you have six outs against. Or say you raise the turn and a king falls on the river and he donk bets you do you call now? By just calling down here you assure that you see the river for only two bets.

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
sorry I was unclear in Hand 2, I meant what does he lead that I should raise against, and is that enough of a percentage of his hands to justify a flop raise? I have a lingering sense I screwed the pooch on the flop here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not trying to be a smartass at all: this is a tough question so I am just stating what comes to mind.

1) You would like to raise over cards that are worse than yours.

2) You would like to raise pp's if you would not be 3 bet and given a free turn card.......right?

Raising would be nice to get heads up in both cases.

That said, I am not real sure about the percentage of his holdings.

He seems to have aggressive stats, so I think he may 3 bet pp's here on the flop. That seems to be the worst part to me is the likelyhood of him haveing a pocket that 3bets the flop.

A very good scenario is him haveing a hand like AJo, but I don't think he'd be as likely to play a hand like that.... although it is certainly within the perameters of the problem at hand. He could be trying to get you off your overs.....how often, I don't know.

Good Question.