Over pair against a 2+2er - Page 3

AdamL · #1 09-23-2005, 03:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hero is UTG with [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

 Hero raises , 1 fold, 2+2er 3-bets , BB calls , Hero caps , 2+2er calls , BB calls .

Flop: (12.5 SB) 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

 2+2er bets , BB calls , Hero raises , 2+2er 3-bets , BB (moran) calls , Hero caps, 2+2er calls , BB calls ,

Turn: (12 BB) J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

 2+2er bets , BB calls , Hero raises , 2+2er calls , BB folds .

River: (18 BB) 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

 2+2er checks , Hero ???? 

What hands do you bet/call, bet/fold, check behind?

And why.

All this is from memory, but that's pretty much the gist of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, since we know that you have unsuited cards, you either have AK here or a pair. Since you went nuts, you have a pair, maybe even a good one. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Since he went nuts and the board is rainbow, he probably has a pair too.

So, what's your question, you raised the turn and he called you. He either has TT,QQ,KK, or AA. Since he's a 2+2er he doesn't have AA or JJ... he therefore has KK, QQ, or TT. PF he COULD have 99, but that would be weird as he should probably have folded. However, if he had 99 he wouldn't have slowed down on the turn.

Your enemy hand range is KK,QQ,TT.

Obviously bet AA and KK.

When you have QQ, it gets a little tougher. It's a break-even bet, so you should do it, just for your image, even though it won't add to your bottom line, unless it will add to the rake (which would make it a negative play, so don't bet in that case).

The only question is, would villain have gotten this ag with TT on that flop when you were pounding him? In my opinion, probably, because he's OOP and doesn't want to give overcards a free play to bet him...

So, if it won't increase the rake, bet hands QQ and better, otherwise, bet hands KK and better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was just about to write this post, but you beat me to it. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

DavidC · #2 09-23-2005, 10:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hero is UTG with [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

 Hero raises , 1 fold, 2+2er 3-bets , BB calls , Hero caps , 2+2er calls , BB calls .

Flop: (12.5 SB) 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

 2+2er bets , BB calls , Hero raises , 2+2er 3-bets , BB (moran) calls , Hero caps, 2+2er calls , BB calls ,

Turn: (12 BB) J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

 2+2er bets , BB calls , Hero raises , 2+2er calls , BB folds .

River: (18 BB) 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

 2+2er checks , Hero ???? 

What hands do you bet/call, bet/fold, check behind?

And why.

All this is from memory, but that's pretty much the gist of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, since we know that you have unsuited cards, you either have AK here or a pair. Since you went nuts, you have a pair, maybe even a good one. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Since he went nuts and the board is rainbow, he probably has a pair too.

So, what's your question, you raised the turn and he called you. He either has TT,QQ,KK, or AA. Since he's a 2+2er he doesn't have AA or JJ... he therefore has KK, QQ, or TT. PF he COULD have 99, but that would be weird as he should probably have folded. However, if he had 99 he wouldn't have slowed down on the turn.

Your enemy hand range is KK,QQ,TT.

Obviously bet AA and KK.

When you have QQ, it gets a little tougher. It's a break-even bet, so you should do it, just for your image, even though it won't add to your bottom line, unless it will add to the rake (which would make it a negative play, so don't bet in that case).

The only question is, would villain have gotten this ag with TT on that flop when you were pounding him? In my opinion, probably, because he's OOP and doesn't want to give overcards a free play to bet him...

So, if it won't increase the rake, bet hands QQ and better, otherwise, bet hands KK and better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was just about to write this post, but you beat me to it. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Don't you hate that, when you get everything typed into the text box, post it, then see that someone else had written exactly the same thing, word for word, so you have to delete your post before anyone notices? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

... Actually, there's some respectable-types on here who've said that villain couldn't have TT, in that case, it wouldn't be prudent to bet QQ. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

--Dave.

AdamL · #3 09-24-2005, 08:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Don't you hate that, when you get everything typed into the text box, post it, then see that someone else had written exactly the same thing, word for word, so you have to delete your post before anyone notices? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Well now, mine wasn't *exactly* the same I guess... there were some minor changes. I think I mentioned that villain could'nt have TT or somefink...

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Entity · #4 09-23-2005, 08:53 PM

Hero should be value betting any hand he raised on the turn. Whether he should have raised his QQ on the turn, however, is another matter.

DavidC · #5 09-23-2005, 10:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hero should be value betting any hand he raised on the turn. Whether he should have raised his QQ on the turn, however, is another matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Especially if villain would have three-bet, to see where he stood. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

@bsolute_luck · #6 09-25-2005, 11:24 AM

some great thoughts/responses so far...and we still haven't seen results.

regarding the check/raise: it isn't for protection at all. it is merely to show Hero in this hand, villain knows he capped preflop and he's still going to come at him that he too have a premium pair and NOT 3-betting with AQ and such. the check/raise on the flop is beautiful because it does look like protection, and villain knows hero is going to 3-bet his premium pair, so there is a lot of value here (plus if hero has AK, he's getting punished for trying to bluff at this pot)

i think the turn donkbet is my favorite part. because here is where villain wants to get in his head. villain knows he 3-bet the flop after a c/r and yet he's still betting into hero because we both know if he doesn't have QQ, he's raising here, so why would villain bet into hero? now the turn is NOT 3-bet by villain, which should scream no set....shouldn't it [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [a side question: what would you do if you're 3-bet here by villain?]

so the river hero has a decision when it is checked to him: should he bet. villain thinks hero's probably going to bet as he raised the turn. the question for hero is: what am i going to do if i get check/raised? again, hero knows villain's range of hands and vice versa.

if hero has JJ-TT, obvious bet. we've eliminated QQ (hopefully). AA and KK are left. i do not think KK should be betting here, because villain does not have QQ based on the turn donkbet, so we're not beating any hands.

that leaves AA: should AA bet here? i think you need to answer your question of what do you do if you're check/raised. because you're basically hoping villain is either playing QQ like a doofus or KK.