JJ OOP...river line

bozlax · #1 09-14-2005, 12:33 PM

Ok, I'm trying to resolve this river play thing, when it's right to bet-fold, check-fold, check-call, etc. So, two questions: what's your line, and, more important, WHY? Please give explanations, folks, just saying bet-fold doesn't help.

This is my, uh, 11th hand at the table. No reads at all.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 6 folds, Button calls, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG caps, Button calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, Button bets, Hero raises, UTG calls, Button 3-bets, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, Button bets, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (14 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero ?

closer2313 · #2 09-14-2005, 12:42 PM

Well, I've been thinking about this. This post maybe will be half right, but I'll get the discussion going. This is very important to understand to be a good winning player.

Bet Fold
1) You have to have a good hand. (Overpair, TPTK, etc)
2) Your opponents will call with weaker hands if you bet, but check behind with the same hands
3) They wont bluff raise the river
4) He will bet hands that beat you if he is checked to.

Check Call

1) You have enough of a hand that you can't fold, but its still marginal
2) Worse hands have a difficult time calling a bet
3) Better hands may check behind
4) You may induce a bluff

Check Fold

1) You have a holding that is not strong at all.
2) Your opponents have shown that you are beat on previous streets

Bet/Call

1) You have enough of a hand that betting will show a profit.
2) You dont want worse hands to check behind
3) Its possible for him to bluff raise the river
4) He may raise hands that you beat (top 2 pair vs your bottom set)

edit: I have no opinion thus far.

Aaron W. · #3 09-14-2005, 12:43 PM

Bet-fold is probably the right play here. I think the flop 3-bet from UTG could still be AK ("free card"), and the turn follow-up was because the board paired. There's no way that AK is going to raise this river, and you don't want AK to check behind. If he's holding that, he's very likely going to pay off the river donkbet because the pot is so large. If you get raised on the end, you're almost certainly against AA/KK (sometimes QQ, but even that hand has a tough time raising the river donkbet).

Check-folding is better than check-calling since AK doesn't bet this river very often. But I don't like either one so much.

closer2313 · #4 09-14-2005, 12:48 PM

I was talking to my friend who is a good 30/60 and 20/40 player online. He also plays the higher limit games live. Here are some examples.

Bet/Fold is better than check/call

Him1: so lets say you had qq and the river is a k against a pfr
Him1: if he has jj, and you check
Him1: he will check it back and you lose a bet
Him1: but if he has ak, he will bet, you will call, and you will lose a bet

Check/call over bet/fold

Him1: like say you had bottom pair or something
Him1: and you bet all the way
Him1: and then on the river the diamodn draw missed
Him1: well you should check call here because its difficult for a worse hand to call
Him1: and hands that might be slightly ahead of you may check as well

bozlax · #5 09-14-2005, 12:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet-fold is probably the right play here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think you'll be raised by the typical Party .5/1 player holding ATo, here?

deception5 · #6 09-14-2005, 12:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You don't think you'll be raised by the typical Party .5/1 player holding ATo, here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's a definite possibility. I'd probably bet/call.

closer2313 · #7 09-14-2005, 12:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet-fold is probably the right play here. I think the flop 3-bet from UTG could still be AK ("free card"), and the turn follow-up was because the board paired.

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG isn't doing the betting. The button is. The button cold called twice preflop. I think we can safely assume that UTG has AK and not AA-QQ. The button is a mystery. He could play alot of hands this way. But without a read, its hard to put him on a good hand range.

I would hate to bet fold the river after he raised it with AT.

I also dont like laying down an overpair here when he has to have a trips/fullhouse/quads to beat us.

I'm almost thinking that the river line is read dependent.

adsman · #8 09-14-2005, 01:01 PM

Why did you check the flop?

#9 09-14-2005, 01:05 PM

I would probably check and call one bet back. The button cold-calling and then waking up on the flop really makes me worried about a set, but there is a chance he holds AT. I also think UTG has AK. If it were two bets back I'd probably fold.

bozlax · #10 09-14-2005, 01:11 PM

FPS...hoping for a bet from Button that I could check-raise to drive out UTG. Hey, 2 out of 3 ain't bad, right? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]