Can a Former Addict become a good Poker Player?

#1) I am and have been a poker addict for nearly a decade, losing hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars.

#2) It has completely destroyed my life, in various ways and I can not deny this no matter what I try to tell myself

#3) I truly DO and have for a couple years now believe I am a good player when I play the game the way it should be played.

All this being said, I am ready for the flurry of replies telling me 'Once an Adddict Always an Addict' and every other variance of that statement. Basically I am ready for people to tell me what I propose is impossible.

I am not sure I am posting this here for for assurance of what my deepest fears are or if I am posting it because I want to come back 2 years from now showing everyone I have been able to change my habits. I would guess a combination of both.

On to the situation :

My problem, plain and simple is even when I KNOW without a doubt, without any reason to doubt, and with the feeling deep down that I am beat... I will not drop. This is my first problem.

My second problem is I like the RUSH of playing big stake games, I would buy in for $200 I had that I could spare that week.. Buyin at the $1K NL Tables min buyin and either have a good week or bad week.. Eventually losing it all regardless.

I four tabled at party for some time with varying results. If I kept my cool I did well if I let just one bad beat tilt me say good bye to the last week's winnings... and yes, they were steady winnings. I would tell myself I was running bad, and go at it again.

Those are some of my tendancies and tendancies of a tpyical problem gambler. I am also very aware of this.

I am jobless at this point, I have $500 in a poker account somewhere.. The last week over 1500 hands of $1 NL I have made $250 give or take a few dollars. I have played a tight game, made four incredibly horrible plays that cost me a total of $400. I was able to walk away, turn off the computer and come back later to steadily win back those losses. I never dropped below my buyin amount. On the contrary playing six handed my VP$IP figures are horracious, I should not have the winnings I do. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts.

I am trying starting this week (as I consider it the second week) to reduce my VP$IP, and walk away when frustrated as I ahve been, as well as not going up levels.

Couple things I am sure that will come up :

1) Yes I am aware my bankroll is too small
2) Yes I am aware it takes but one mistake again
3) Yes even though I have kept my cool considerably better than before it doesn't mean a damn thing in the long run

Let's start here and I will answer any questions related to the situation; however I do request that no bashing (such as calling me a complete f'ing idiot) occurs in this thread. If you feel that way, please simply tell me I am an addict, I have a gambling problem, and it will never change.

I truly WILL respect your opinion, all the more so if I know you are a player who has played without poker affecting your life in a negative way.

This is what I would like to do;

1) I want to start at the $50 NL level, buying in with $30 every time.

2) Play no more than 4 hour sessions even if I am hot as a fire poker.

3) I also will not play more than 2 tables at any point of time as it dramatically effects my judgement.

4) I will not stray from the $50 NL game even if I see a SUPER JUICY $100 NL Game going on with three TOTAL fish going apeshit.

5) Maintain my mind frame that this is the money my family is going to be eating off of next week and is going to make the hosue payment in a month.

All that being said I want to note, my family will eat and my house payment will be made along with all other bills paid even if I bust out entirely at this site by doing something stupid.

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This is the main question :

Is it possible someone with my mind frame can retrain themselves to realize that earnign a little at a time steadily is better than that big hit. The biggest road block being I am a problem gambler and there is no denying that. Can I become a successful player?

I am on a 1-10 scale, at a 7 or so in the $100 and under category. There are players I thought were the best damn players on the site I am playing at I put absolutely sweet traps on and nailed them hard this week. When I am playing like this my mentality is different. I would far from rate myself above a 7 for multiple reasons beyond the desire to play at larger limits and wreckless calling when I know I am beat. My main actual leak in my game is my extraordinarily high VP$IP figures. And no, I haven't ever in the past decade looked at my game like I have in the last week.

Please be fairly constructive in your replies, I am aware how ridicilous this will sound to the majority of you and I do not need to be told how stupid I am for screwing up my life on gambling, I already know this O.K. ?

Question is, can I make this not about the gambling when I am being treated for every other problem I had that was occuring during that decade. Heavy Drug and Alchohol abuse mainly.. Which of course do not lead to wise financial decisions or wise decisions at the tables.

Fire away -->

[Python49]

Well aside from the obvious advice.... id suggest having someone review your Hand Histories and then telling you the leaks in your game. Once you know what you are doing wrong, focus on not making these same mistakes again. It's up to you in terms of if you can make the corrections you need to, to be a successful player...

[ QUOTE ]
Well aside from the obvious advice.... id suggest having someone review your Hand Histories and then telling you the leaks in your game. Once you know what you are doing wrong, focus on not making these same mistakes again. It's up to you in terms of if you can make the corrections you need to, to be a successful player...

[/ QUOTE ]

Python, I agree and this is the stance I am taking. Taking the game seriously this time around starting as of a week ago. However, people who have known me for long periods of time simply state "You have a gmabling problem don't kid yourself you CAN NOT do this"

It's frustrating when I would at least like to try as I do truly enjoy the game. I am realizing it is more of a rush to me knowing I just outplayed an opponent then that I won a huge pot... As odd as that sounds.

[Orpheus]

Can they? Sure, it's statistically possible. I sincerely wish you the best of luck--when you're not at my tables.

HOWEVER, at the risk of falling afoul of your guidelines, I must point out that "Table Selection is rule #1" (some say Rule #0, since you can't expect anything good from sitting at a table that holds nothing but trouble for you)

Poker has held nothing but trouble for you. Why do you think a poker table is the right table for you? On at least Some level, you know that it may not be, so you've blown rule #1.

On the other hand, you've obviously made up your mind to pusue a course of action, so I can only honestly wish you well, though, objectively, I wonder if a $500 downturn in the coming week might be the kindest outcome, however good you may be.

What's changed? Were you a terrible player before? I'd say "yes", even though I'm perfectly willing to believe that you could beat me, heads up or ring or tourney. An otherwise outstanding player with a huge leak at the river can be a terrible player overall, because the money will inevitably flow outmof his wallet in the long run. You've actually told us that the (relatively) frequent "big beats" are not out of tyour bloodstream. Even if your extremely short-term results are moderately positive, they are not usual for a complete newbies with a merely decent game, playing low level NLHE.

You must know this. If you don't, after all your play, then you are *way* behind the curve, and headed for a drubbing, regardless of anything else you may say. Yet you seek to redeem yours life through poker.

I fully understand that society isn't remotely fair, and you may not be likely to get a position that makes best use (and properly remunerates) your abilities and skills, but that doesn't make poker the right venue for you. Not knowing you political or philosopical views, I can't choose an evocative example, but they abound: from the athletically gifted inner city youth who turns to drug running because he put all his eggs into his basketball game but lost the big college scholarship (when a little more attention to academics and discipline might have kept him on the road to the majors) to the unepathetic pre-med who can make it through medical school, but will never truly enjoy or perform well in in the the actual practice of clinical medicine (among the reasons why physicians have such a high rate of suicide)

You must have better options, especially considering your past. I wish I could tell you what they are.

But you've made up your mind, and have already essentially said that you're not going to heed the response you KNOW most profitable players will have. So good luck! And I REALLY hope I get to hear a trenchant "I told you so" in a year. No decent human being who has ever been down for the count, for any reason, can wish ill on another.

Just know this: you've preselected the responses you'll heed, though the cards are stacked against you.

Oh heck: good luck even when you're at my table. I can take the hit.

Orpheus, those were some excellent points. I prefer not to get into the other options in my life as I don't plan on doing this long term for a living - Period. I am going to get a 9-5 and live a normal life, I would LOVE to be able to consider this a profitable hobby the rest of my life and maybe... just maybe; even break even at some point of time [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'm rather suprised at the comments and replies I am getting, I definately expected more inane remarks and people berating me. I will post my stats in a week's time and maybe time to time in between there. I am also going to be spending some time reading other areas of this forumn and posting questions in the appropriate areas as well.

And you may very well be correct, losing the $500 may be the best outcome regardless of how good of a player I 'may'
be due to the fact I could very easily lose the mind frame I have now and cause more devastation to my life. I definately hope this is not my case as I have cleaned my life up in alot of other very difficult areas, and hope I can do so here as well.

[PairTheBoard]

Be careful. Be very careful.

PairTheBoard

[Jimmy The Fish]

[ QUOTE ]

Is it possible someone with my mind frame can retrain themselves to realize that earnign a little at a time steadily is better than that big hit. The biggest road block being I am a problem gambler and there is no denying that. Can I become a successful player?


[/ QUOTE ]

No "firing away" here.

I have several relatives who have battled substance addictions of one form or another. It's not a laughing matter, or one to be dismissed lightly.

Addiction is, by definition, uncontrollable. You can construct all sorts of rules and guidelines for yourself, but you'll have to constantly fight the temptation to ignore them. The part of your brain that drives the addiction will always crave the "big hit", no matter how consistently you deny it.

You may be excellent at finding the right strategy to beat your opponents, but the inability to let go of sure losers is a huge weakness. That alone makes it questionable to determine whether you can become a successful player.

But here's the biggest concern I have:
[ QUOTE ]

5) Maintain my mind frame that this is the money my family is going to be eating off of next week and is going to make the hosue payment in a month.

All that being said I want to note, my family will eat and my house payment will be made along with all other bills paid even if I bust out entirely at this site by doing something stupid.


[/ QUOTE ]

The money you already have online may not have an impact on your family; but you don't say whether you would reload if it disappeared. Until you can afford to lose the money, you can't afford to play with it.

It should be obvious what my recommendation will be. Cash out and use the $500 in the real world. Pick a date -- six months, nine months, a year -- and make a commitment to a complete lack of gambling in this time period. Prove to yourself that you truly can walk away, that you're not just trying to rationalize the continuation of the addiction. If, after that time, you have a job and can afford to lose money, you can make a decision about whether to buy back in.

I wish you all the best.

[psyduck]

Hundreds of thousands of dollars?

Or are you exaggerating and have just lost thousands?

A lot of the stuff you posted is pretty nonsensical. WTF are you doing buying into a $50 game with $30?

[cero_z]

OK, I'll say it. NO. You cannot do this. I concede that it's possible, since undoubtedly there are a few addicted gamblers at the absolute pinnacle of poker, but your chances are sickeningly low.

Your most severe leak is the worst one of all: you can't fold when you know you're beaten, and losses only worsen this condition. This kills poker players, even those who aren't addicts. Steaming is a powerful force, and everyone who's not a freak of nature must struggle with it. But it's hard enough when you're not a problem gambler. A player with the traits you've described has no chance.

The other reason I say no is that you don't appear to have exceptional ability, unless you were being modest about your own assessment of your abilities. 7 out of 10 at the $100 limit is not exceptional. Those players are horrible compared to a pro who makes 50K/year or more. That pro is an 11 out of 10 at that limit. Even someone who's green and improving with experience ought to be a 9 on sheer ability in these games, if they even want to consider going pro.

Making a living at poker is HARD under favorable conditions; you have all odds against you (addiction, tiny bankroll, mediocre talent). Forget the fantasies you read on this board about all the 22-year-old kids making 100K in their sleep; 22-year-olds lie. A select few regular posters at this site play well enough to support themselves playing poker if they had to pay rent, etc., but most do not play much better than break-even poker.

What you do is your personal business. I am giving you a recommendation that comes only from a place of compassion toward you, I promise. You have too many things going against you, and losing it all at poker again will likely cause a lot of damage to your psyche. Let it go. Let it go.

Cero

[Al Schoonmaker]

You have already answered your own question. You KNOW that you can't become a good player, but you're hoping that someone is going to tell you what you want to hear.

Let me quote from an article that appeared in our magazine a few months ago, "Denial, Part III."

"Robert Andersson stimulated this article by sending me a Personal Message. 'Here at the forum a lot of people ask for advice. We want to know how to play this or that hand or ask for opinions on other subjects. I just thought that the most important thing when you ask for advice is to be open to the answers you're getting.'

"I could not agree more, but countless posters are not asking for information. They really want confirmation. Instead of sincerely wanting to improve their game or their understanding of another subject, they want to be told: 'You’re right...'

"Don’t Search for Confirming Opinions.

"Because people have different opinions, you may be tempted to go 'shopping' for confirmation. Let’s say I ask Mason and David about a hand, and they say, 'Al, you misplayed it.' Their opinions should be enough to convince me. Unfortunately, if I’m defensive, I might ask for some more opinions, and I might look for people who I expect to agree with me. If I ask enough people, I can probably find someone – perhaps a weak player -- who tells me exactly what I want to hear: 'Alan, that’s just the way I would have played it.'

"Aha! I’ve gotten the confirmation I need to protect my ego, but I have also reinforced my own denial. Even if five experts say I’m wrong, and only one weak player supports me, I have support for my denial. I wish I never went confirmation shopping, but I have done it occasionally. You have probably done it too. If the first one or two people you consult say you’re wrong, stop shopping, accept reality, and learn from your mistake."

You are now confirmation shopping. A few people -- who will not have any training in psychology -- may say, "You can become a good player." They don't know what they are talking about.

They would be just as wrong as the weak players who disagreed with David and Mason on how to play a hand. ANY competent psychologist will say that your chances of becoming a good player are nearly zero.

You may succeed for a brief time, but the psychological characteristics that made you into an addict are still operating, and they will almost certainly continue to operate.

Do the sensible thing. Accept reality and the opinion of experts: Leave poker and all other forms of gambling alone.

Regards,

Al