Can a Former Addict become a good Poker Player?

[valenzuela]

Lets suppose U can beat the game, lets suppose..I repeat we are supposing u can beat the game...can someone with ure personality manage variance??
edit: Once variance hits you, you will start playing losing poker instead of winning poker. You will probably reply to me saying u can handle the swings but I dont think u can.

[bwana devil]

great posts Dr. Al.

Addict, let me echo his sentiment and some of the other posters on this thread by saying it sounds like youre looking for permission to slip back into some addictive vices that you find comfortable. you are already making bad decisions regarding gambling and are heading for trouble. additionally it is a bad idea to consider your family dependent on your gambling money.

i would recommend that you stop immediately before you get yourself and your family in trouble.

bwana

[Reef]

[ QUOTE ]


I HIGHLY recomend you never play poker or gamble in any other form ever again in your life.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Vincent Lepore]

Hi Al,

This is a very interesting thread. At first I thought that this fellow was just posting this as a joke. Or at least as a sarcastic look at those poker players that claim that poker is not gambling. I confess to the latter.

I'm still not convinced that something of this nature was not the intent of the OP but I don't think it matters. What makes this interesting to me aside from the addiction aspect of the thread is just what does it take to change the beliefs of long time poker players whether they are losers or winners for that matter.

Most people that play poker for some short period of time begin to believe that they know how to play the game. I think this is because most people experience some form of short term success which makes them believe that they know how to play wheteher or not they really do understand the game. I've seen this type of belief through exhibeted behavior in many gambling games especially craps.

I do not know much about the causes of any addiction nor how to cure any of them. I used to believe that education was the key to freeing oneself from an addiction. I don't doubt that I was very wrong about this. But in the realm of poker, something I feel that I know a little about, I am pretty sure that education is the key to success. I believe that a person that has been playing for many years and has been a consistent loser, then realizes that it is because of how he plays the game might just be able to become a winning player if he accepted his short comings and focused on learning winning concepts.

I have found that once someone understands what constitutes proper poker play they will either play according to those concepts or quit playing poker altogether. I believe it has something to do with intelligence.

So if I were going to advise this fellow on how to either become a winning poker player or quit poker altogether I would tell him to read and heed everything that Sklansky and Malmuth have written on the subject of poker playing and accept it as gospel. Once he accomplishes this he might just be cured. Well, I hope so anyway.

An old buddy,

Vince

[Al Schoonmaker]

Hi Vince,

So nice to see you here. You've been away too long. You should come here more often.

We disagree on this issue, but we've disagreed before without it ever harming our friendship.

Education is NOT the cure for addictions. For example, nobody knows more about the effects of drugs than physicians, but they have a higher rate of drug addiction than the general population. They usually become addicted to prescription drugs, not street ones.

They know better, but the combination of several factors causes them to become addicted.
1. They live high stress lives.
2. They can get drugs very easily.
3. They arrogantly believe that they can control their usage, even though they know colleagues who have become addicted.

The process of addiction goes something like this.
1. They take pills to lift them up when they are exhausted.
2. They take pills to help them to relax and sleep when they are stressed out.
3. They become addicted to uppers, downers, or both.

They all learn in medical school that thousands of physicians have become addicts, but they arrogantly believe it can't happen to ME.

Don't take my word for it. Just do a google search for "drug addiction" and "physicians."

Hope to see you here again soon so we can argue about something else.

Your Buddy,

Al

I haven't read through every single post, but I will post my advice.

I believe you can, but you need to take it very slow.

Start at the micro stakes games. After something like 10k hands, when you are sure you can beat it, move up one level. Play 10k more hands, and so on.

Get pokertracker to track your results, and prove that you can beat a level. If you simply are not beating that level, either stick with it, or drop down if your bankroll dictates it. If at any point, you realize you cannot mentally handle the inevitible chip swings without going on tilt, give up.

[MTBlue]

Don't play. It's not worth it. I am a very successful poker player, I have won year to date almost 40 thousand dollars, but I am a poker addict. My grades have declined greatly down from a 4.0 fall semester to a 2.5 spring semester. Relationships with my family have become strained mainly due to my inability to quit playing. Often times the only thing on my mind is poker. Bottom line becoming successful at poker will not change your addiction, but more people will encourage you to gamble.

[IlliniRyRy]

In my sincere opinion, I think the odds are SERIOUSLY against you for becoming a winning player. That being said, it's certainly not impossible. I just think if someone has had the same bad habits time and time again, it becomes harder and harder to change. Akin to a big time drug addict who seriously has no chance to kick the habit, they're literally incapable physically and mentally. And listen, you should NEVER ever rely on poker income from month to month, you might not make a dime in a month sometimes even if you're Phil Ivey. You have to be prepared to handle the swings, if you're really relying on winning to pay the bills, you might have the tendency to play poorly because of the tension of paying your bils on time. As a poker player I guess I can't help but think in terms of probailiites and I'd say (and I bet others would agree) that you have about a 1 in 10 chance of succeeding based on what you wrote about yourself. When it all comes down to it though, its up to you and whether or not you have enough drive. You are the one that ultimately makes the outcome whatever you choose. Just my two cents.

[Vincent Lepore]

Hi Al,

We don't disagree about addiction. The following is from my previous post:

[ QUOTE ]
I do not know much about the causes of any addiction nor how to cure any of them. I used to believe that education was the key to freeing oneself from an addiction. I don't doubt that I was very wrong about this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was speaking a bit toungue in cheek wihth regards to poker (gambling addiction aside). I may have, probably did, treat the subject of addiction to lightly. Sorry.

Oh, thanks for the kind words. I have found that over the past year or so that I have been a very angry so and so. This has come out in a lot of my recent posts here on 2 + 2. Andy Fox did me a great service by pointing this out to me. I think he's trying to take your job. Of course for old times sakes and out of respect I will certainly make a couch apointment with you the next time I go off my rocker. More folks should come to this Psychology forum of yours. Nothing is more important to playing winning poker than a sane mind. Unless of course you are Mike Caro. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Vince

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
#1) I am and have been a [gambling] addict for nearly a decade, losing hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars [in poker].

#2) It has completely destroyed my life, in various ways and I can not deny this no matter what I try to tell myself.

[/ QUOTE ]
This would have been enough for the response I am about to give, for what it's worth anyway, but there's more on your status :
[ QUOTE ]
My problem ... is [that] even when I KNOW without a doubt, without any reason to doubt, and with the feeling deep down that I am beat... I will not drop. This is my first problem.
<font color="white"> . </font>
My second problem is I like the RUSH of playing big stake games, I would buy in for $200 I had that I could spare that week.. Buyin at the $1K NL Tables min buyin and either have a good week or bad week.. Eventually losing it all regardless.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's enough.

I used to know quite a bit about substance addiction. Empirically speaking, the odds are extremely heavily stacked against
- a former alcoholic getting to be a wine connoisseur,
- a former cocaine junkie being able to "enjoy the occasional hit"
- a serial wife beater becoming a tender companion
- a compulsive gambler getting to be an advantage player
- etc.

[ QUOTE ]
I truly DO and have for a couple years now believe I am a good player when I play the game the way it should be played.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, you are deluding yourself. William Burroughs knew about drugs more than most doctors but he was still shooting up.

The single bright aspect of your condition is that you are aware of it - and seeking help. So carry the ball to the end line! There is one objective and one objective only : Quit gambling completely and forever.

You gotta identify the sources of your addiction-prone behavior and you gotta find other things to do, instead. You are possibly quite good at something other than poker, which you don't know yet. In any case, you should probably consider seeking professional help in this effort.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.