Get Even Itis (money management - long content)

[poundaforty]

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My point was, 30BB is different at one table of B&M than while multi-tabling online, psychologically and statistically.

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No, no it's not. What planet are you people from? Is this a troll account? 30BB is f[/i]ucking 30BB online or B&M, 100/200 or .5/1, Puerto Rico or Paris.

This thread should die now. It is uninteresting and unhelpful and rife with misconceptions.

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No... are YOU a troll account?? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Some of you are real jerk-offs to the new people here.

If anyone would like to discuss this intelligently, I would love to be proven wrong.

Playing multiple tables doesn't increase your overall variance - you're just as likely to encounter a -30BB downswing over a finite number of hands playing one table as opposed to eight tables, assuming you play similarly in each situation.

But in the short term... for a given amount of time, say, one hour, you are more likely to encounter a downswing of -30BB playing eight tables as opposed to playing one table.

By "encounter," i mean that anywhere within that amount of hands that you played, a downswing of -30BB occurred.

That is why I said 30bb is different while multi-tabling online than playing one table of B&M.

Somebody please tell me how this is wrong.

[crunchy1]

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But in the short term... for a given amount of time, say, one hour, you are more likely to encounter a downswing of -30BB playing eight tables as opposed to playing one table. By "encounter," i mean that anywhere within that amount of hands that you played, a downswing of -30BB occurred.

That is why I said 30bb is different while multi-tabling online than playing one table of B&M.

Somebody please tell me how this is wrong.

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It's not wrong but, it's not right either. You are correct in that by multi-tabling online you are much more likely to lose 30BBs in one hour than you are playing at one table for one hour in a B&M casino.

The problem here is that you are comparing apples to oranges. You are just as likely to lose 30BBs over the span of 100 hands multi-tabling online as you are to lose 30BBs over the span of 100 hands in a B&M casino. The difference here is that online you can play 100 hands in 15 minutes where as it will take 3+ hours in a B&M casino to play 100 hands.

The point about limits should be observed and respected. 30BBs = 30BBs. Limits are irrelevant.

As for variance: I believe that your variance (in terms of BB/100 hands) should decrease as you move up in limits. I'm not positive on this so a confirmation from others would be appreciated.

As for Howard Lederer - If he really said that I think it's horrible advice. It's not even close. And if he truely can't handle continuing to play his top game even after losing a measly 30BBs then he's not even 1/4 of the pro that I once respected him to be.

[crunchy1]

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If you are 100% sure that you can tell with absolute certainty whether you are feeling fresh, playing your best, and that the game is good, even after you are stuck a couple hundred BBs, then you can ignore everything I have written. For the rest of us, I think it can be beneficial to have some set amount that tells us that we need to stop. Whatever that amount is is for you to decide.

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This is not meant to be offensive and of course you should all make your own judgement for yourselves but, this is my opinion on stop-losses:

If you can't determine when you're tilting at the table or when the table has gone bad then you've got some things to improve on in your game. These are a couple pretty fundamental, beginning concepts necessary to be a winning poker player and they should be ironed out at micro-limits before moving up.

Using a stop-loss is simply creating a saftey net for yourself which has the unfortunate side-effect of curbing your learning process. Until you have a big loss you are never going to look back on your losing sessions objectively. You'll never say "Wow - I really messed up there!" because you'll simply be satisfied knowing that you lost only your 30BBs.

I know it's a bad, old cliche but, I think it holds some water. You need to learn how to lose before you can learn how to win. Implementing a stop-loss plan will either slow, or possibly entirely deflate this learning process.

In a nutshell - I think stop losses SUCK!

(Again - this is just my opinion - no offense intended [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

[Buck_65]

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Thanks for the replies. Debate is good. This is a controversial issue with the top players so we can disagree as well. By Handicap yourself, I simply mean to judge how good you are vs. the rest of the table. The reference to Howard Lederer and the 30 big bets is from his limit hold'em DVD. Concerning the presentation of my ideas, my degree is in electronics, not english. I hope everyone grasped the concepts I attempted to convey even if they disagree with them. I want to add not subtract value from this forum.

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What were you trying to accomplish by starting this thread? It doesn't belong here, try the psychology forum. Tilt is tilt, and we don't want to hear about it.

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Is a misclick considered tilt?

[Pokey]

In the current issue of the 2+2 Magazine, Mark Blade discussed specifically why Money Management is a bogus concept . Give it a read -- it might be enlightening for you. In general, it sounds like you're discussing tilt and how to avoid it; if you find that losing money makes you tilt, then a stop-loss strategy could easily be profitable for you. Note, however, that it's not making you money by being good "money management" but rather by stopping your tilting.

[Pokey]

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Some of you are real jerk-offs to the new people here.

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Untrue...we're this way with the old-timers, too. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Welcome to the forums.

[MeanGreenTT]

I'm a well read, weekend warrior and I've been helped by this thread....yes I'm a novice, yes I'm a newbie, and yes I still have a lot to learn. I'm thankful I have this site to help, thanks

[Tapin]

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You'll never say "Wow - I really messed up there!" because you'll simply be satisfied knowing that you lost only your 30BBs.

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That's funny; I use a stop-loss most of the time, and any time I've ever hit it I haven't felt particularly satisfied.

In fact, I typically am thinking, "Wow, did I really mess up there or was the game that much better than I was?"

I don't see a stop-loss as being a deterrent to learning that losing sucks, or that when you lose it's generally a good idea to figure out why it happened (be it self-imposed via tilt or simply variance). Perhaps it's just me, but I'd prefer to say "Gee, it hurts when I briefly touch this hot stove..." than "Damn, why is my hand all covered in blisters and screaming in pain?"

[Tapin]

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In the current issue of the 2+2 Magazine, Mark Blade discussed specifically why Money Management is a bogus concept .

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Haivng read that article, it seems to me that his point is that using a money management system alone is a bad idea.

I don't know about anyone else, but the money management system (really, just a stop-loss limit occasionally) is used as an indication that it'd be in my best interests to evaluate my play closely at that table up to that point. I may come to the conclusion that it's simply bad luck and I've played correctly to that point, and I'm sure I'm not tilting; more often, however, it's pretty easy to me to see that either a) I'm tilting (stand up); b) I'm about to tilt because I'm being too results-oriented (stand up); c) Enough of the other players at the table are better than I am to make this table -EV for me (stand up).

Perhaps the very notion of being aware enough of my results to check whether I've reached my stop-loss lends itself towards (b) being the case. I'd still rather seek out greener pastures than see the tilt coming and rush headlong into my doom.

Now, having said that, I only tend to use the stop-loss as an absolute "stop playing now" when I'm in a B&M casino -- when I'm playing online (mostly 3- or 4-tabling), I'll keep an eye on my stacks, and pick up and find another place to play if I find a particular table faring poorly.