A couple interesting hands - maybe

[JDErickson]

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Hand 2
Good table had started to break and was 8 handed. Table had also turned tight and I was on my last round. LP is a decent player (25/7)

I am dealt K J in LMP and open raise. Fold to LP who 3 bets, everyone clears out and I call.

Flop A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero???

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More discussion on this hand on turn action

I checkraised the flop and LP called.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero???

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First, the times we are behind our equity in this pot is going to be somewhere in the range of 25-30% depending on hand ranges for our opponents. Since 3-betting is almost a neutral EV situation to begin with. This means that we only need to be ahead a small portion of the time or get somebody behind us (including sb) to fold a J, a 7, or overcard(s) a small portion of the time.

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I agree that 3bettting is very rarely, if ever, going to be -EV (unless it ends up HU with a better hand).

Just keep in mind that if you are behind - folding out ANY hand (failing folding every J) is going to be less +EV.

And we both agree that Hero is not ahead here often.

[Redd]

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I agree that 3bettting is very rarely, if ever, going to be -EV (unless it ends up HU with a better hand).

Just keep in mind that if you are behind - folding out ANY hand (failing folding every J) is going to be less +EV.

And we both agree that Hero is not ahead here often.

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I'd say that we're against UI overs and a weaker pair often enough here to make this a definite 3-bet.

edit: Got rid of the stuff that isn't really central to the disagreement.

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I'd say that we're against UI overs and a weaker pair often enough here to make this a definite 3-bet.


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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] Which one of these just raised the flop?

Is it the PFR who just bet into 4 people on a semi scary flop who just has overcards?
or is it the guy who just raised the same PFR in to 3 people on the semiscary flop who has the weaker pair?

[Redd]

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I'd say that we're against UI overs and a weaker pair often enough here to make this a definite 3-bet.


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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] Which one of these just raised the flop?

Is it the PFR who just bet into 4 people on a semi scary flop who just has overcards?
or is it the guy who just raised the same PFR in to 3 people on the semiscary flop who has the weaker pair?

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SB is capable of betting UI overs here IMO, and the loose BB's wide range of hands could include weaker pairs here, especially if he believes SB can CB.

Even if you're skeptical of this, remember that given our flop equity this parlay doesn't need to occur very often to justify a 3-bet.

I understand what you're saying Redd as well as what everyone else has said.

The 3bet is justified and is +EV. 3betting does have a chance (very slim) of being -EV though.
Calling will ALWAYS be +EV.

The question is - which one is more positive.

The difference comes down to the equity added by knocking out overcards vs the added value of letting other hands remain.

If we are behind already, the value of knocking out overcards is nothing. And we are behind a large percentage of the time.

Other things to consider.

- the number of times you isolate yourself with a better hand.
- the number of times you can knock out a J. If this does work though, you add three 9 outs but implicitly take away a J out.
- The chance of a free card
- Would you make more on subsequent streets, when you make your hand, had you not 3bet and let others in or let others keep their initiative.
- Will someone else 3bet or cap anyway.
- Will players behind call two but not three when you are drawing.
- Will hands behind call 3 anyway.

These questions aren't easily answered.
- what are the likely holdings of the villians.
- how many bets are they willing to put in.
- will they be aggressive with marginal made hands.
- will they call two but not three.
- does he only raise with premium hands.
- are they capable of folding to continued aggression on a scary board.

I'm not saying that calling is better. I'm just saying that it's a little more complicated than "Easy 3bet"

FWIW. I 3bet.
IMO. The opportunity to gain the button for subsequent streets is the most compelling factor.

I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] constructive discussion.

[heebos]

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Quote:

Hand 2
Good table had started to break and was 8 handed. Table had also turned tight and I was on my last round. LP is a decent player (25/7)

I am dealt K J in LMP and open raise. Fold to LP who 3 bets, everyone clears out and I call.

Flop A Q T

Hero???



More discussion on this hand on turn action

I checkraised the flop and LP called.

Turn: Q

Hero???



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This is one of my first posts on this site, so I bow to my better-traveled brethren. Gotta start somewhere, so here's what I think:

I'd have led the flop in hopes that he flopped a good hand, but since you c/r'd and he just called, I'd lead the turn and see what he does. I'd figure to still be good if he just calls my turn bet, and would probably fold to a raise. Thoughts?