Wong on Dice

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Bob:

We thik that most of his other stuff is very good.

best wishes,
Mason

[King Yao]

I don't know if it was written up there or not.

[GeoC]

He's not out of his mind. Along with playing high stakes blackjack, our team is also doing high stakes craps. some several thousand on the layout at a time. Suggest you go to Bj21.com Craps section and do a little reading. Tomorrow, a fellow by the name of Dominator will be on TV showing off his skills. Sorry don't know the channel or time, but will post it when I find out.

-GeoC

[maurile]

From an interview with Steve Forte (who is the authority on which casino games are beatable through advantage play):

Q. Is there any way a shooter, that hits the alligator with both dice, can throw a controlled shot? Are all these people writing books and conducting seminars just ripping people off?

A. I don't believe it's possible to hit the back wall with both dice and control them to the extent of generating a winning edge. This a perfect example of an alleged skill, like many we often hear about, where it's easy to quickly voice an opinion for, or against, without qualification. But a scientific opinion requires much more. In the book I document a test consisting of 12,000 rolls. Actually, I dropped two dice from 10" above the table, same configuration, straight down, and with no obstacles. The results did not indicate a statistically significant presence of control. Even the slightest bounce appears to be an adequate randomizer.

An interesting development in this area is a new book by Stanford Wong, but since I haven't looked at the book yet, I don't know if his work looks at hitting the back wall with both dice (most dice setters are looking to throw the dice short of the back wall). Even with Stanford Wong stepping into the controversy, and considering his impeccable reputation and his remarkable body of work, I'm not ready to change my mind. I have trouble seeing past the results of my own test, which is why I state in my book "Until I see evidence to the contrary, I remain a non believer."

Link.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Maurile:

I Know Steve Forte and agree that he is the very best on this stuff, while I'm certainly not. If Steve should change his opinion, then I will quickly change mine.

Again, I haven'r read the Wong book and do think very highly of most of his other stuff.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Biloxi]

[ QUOTE ]

Scoblete seems like a borderline con artist to me. I'm pretty sure his income all comes from his writing, not his gambling. I think he just pimps stuff like this for some side income.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, you are right about Scoblete. If he could do it as well as he preaches he would be making a good living shooting, instead of selling it. I think he enjoys being in the spotlight. All the real shooters remain under the radar.

[ QUOTE ]

Q. Is there any way a shooter, that hits the alligator with both dice, can throw a controlled shot? Are all these people writing books and conducting seminars just ripping people off?

A. I don't believe it's possible to hit the back wall with both dice and control them to the extent of generating a winning edge. This a perfect example of an alleged skill, like many we often hear about, where it's easy to quickly voice an opinion for, or against, without qualification. But a scientific opinion requires much more. In the book I document a test consisting of 12,000 rolls. Actually, I dropped two dice from 10" above the table, same configuration, straight down, and with no obstacles. The results did not indicate a statistically significant presence of control.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course the two will splatter when dropped straight down, all the downward momentum must be displaced. Shooters dont drop the dice straight down. just give em a balanced toss across the table and watch roll nicely on the same axis. Totally different from just dropping them.

There are some people who can roll consistently but its very rare to find one of them.

[Eclypse]

[ QUOTE ]
...a fellow by the name of Dominator will be on TV showing off his skills. Sorry don't know the channel or time, but will post it when I find out.

-GeoC

[/ QUOTE ]

Tonight on the History Channel 9:00pm Pacific Time.

[Toonces]

[ QUOTE ]

Q. Is there any way a shooter, that hits the alligator with both dice, can throw a controlled shot? Are all these people writing books and conducting seminars just ripping people off?

A. I don't believe it's possible to hit the back wall with both dice and control them to the extent of generating a winning edge. This a perfect example of an alleged skill, like many we often hear about, where it's easy to quickly voice an opinion for, or against, without qualification. But a scientific opinion requires much more. In the book I document a test consisting of 12,000 rolls. Actually, I dropped two dice from 10" above the table, same configuration, straight down, and with no obstacles. The results did not indicate a statistically significant presence of control.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course the two will splatter when dropped straight down, all the downward momentum must be displaced. Shooters dont drop the dice straight down. just give em a balanced toss across the table and watch roll nicely on the same axis. Totally different from just dropping them.

There are some people who can roll consistently but its very rare to find one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. The theory of dice setting (as far as I ca tell) is that you throw both dice into the corner of the wall locking one die between the second die and the wall. If it can be done properly, there is no reason for the dice to rotate beyond the single axis, eliminating 2 of the 6 sides. In practice, this is not a sure thing, but it does seem to me feasable to get this to succeed a fair percentage of the time.

Im sure that a machine can replicate this "throw" if someone was interested in testing it, but dropping dice onto a table certainly would not disprove it in my eyes.

As for Scolbete guy, I do think his betting strategies are a load of bull, but may just have been lucky to back into a technique that works.

[playersare]

[ QUOTE ]
As for Scolbete guy, I do think his betting strategies are a load of bull, but may just have been lucky to back into a technique that works.

[/ QUOTE ]
well, Scobe has certainly been championing AP craps longer than any other gambling author, with his countless stories about "The Captain", and books he published like "Craps Underground" and Sharpshooter's "Get The Edge At Craps" are arguably the better quality titles available in that otherwise limited genre.

deep down I'm sure Scoblete knows the correct basic strategy for all games, but he can't sell as many books or seminars without fluffing things up a bit. so Wong throws his hat in to attract the more intelligent audience that Frank can't reach.

in a more cynical point of view, in terms of the number of people who read Wong On Dice, a majority of them who actually try to gain an advantage will probably fail, just like a lot of people who read Beat The Dealer 40 years ago. since craps is somewhat of a dying breed, this could be an effort to get more fish to roll dice so that the AP's can maintain the games for themselves on a macro level.

[KellyRae]

"I can't be the only one who laughed out loud at this"

I thought it funny as well. I was speaking somewhat facitiously (sp?) when I made my initial post, as I have read most of Wong's work and they are largely first rate IMO.

The notion of being able to adequately influence the roll of dice at a craps table (under casino house rules) strikes me, however, as being something that is hard to believe possible.