No Limit Holdem Question

[jacksup]

I played it right. To be just a little results-oriented about this, my opponent's range of hands includes A2o. So I think it's reasonable to say his range is any ace, any pair, KQo-K8o, KQs-K5s, QJs-Q8s, JTs-76s, QJo-98o, QTo, Q9o, J9s, J9o, T8s. I have 54 percent equity against that range of hands. And since my opponent called with A2o, I think it's reasonable to assume he's calling with any of the holdings he raised with. So my play is, at least, profitable. Could I make more money by flat-calling? Then I risk letting the big blind in for 800 more, which would likely decrease my equity. But assuming the big blind folds, I likely have more equity by moving all-in on the flop (regardless of what flops), possibly causing him to fold some hands that would've beaten me in a showdown. But overall, I think the risk of letting the big blind in is too big compared to the reward of moving in on the flop rather than preflop. So I like my play.

As for A2o on the button, I think his initial raise is very borderline, probably close to zero EV. He's crushed by the range of hands that reraise him, but he might win the 600 in blinds often enough to make the raise to 1200 profitable based on that alone. His call of the reraise is correct, barely. He's risking 2200 to win 5000, so he's getting about 2.3 to 1. Let's reasonably say my range of hands is AA-66, AKs-A9s, AKo-ATo, KQs, KJs, KQo, QJs. He has about 33 percent equity against these hands and needs to be getting a little over 2-1 to make the call profitable, which he is. This goes to show why the traditional thinking of "I can't fold getting over 2-1 against an all-in raiser" is often correct--I mean if it's correct with A2o, when won't it be correct?

So in the end, I think both players did fine.

Matt

[MHoydilla]

Tell us what you think and why.

[David Sklansky]

jacksup got it right

[AceHigh]

Hi Matt,

I'm surprised your are pushing all-in with 3400 in chips with KQs and the blinds only 400. Am I missing something? Did you think there was a good chance the button would fold? Or was this a satellite tournament where you needed to play it fast?

Just seems to me that it's fairly likely you will get called, considering the stack sizes and the pot sizes, in a situation where it's likely to be a coin flip.

[FatLoser]

I think he should put you allin unless the big blind has got more chips, then the 1200 raise is fine. The reason he should put you allin is so you wont try going allin in the hope that he might fold a steal raise. If he puts in that kind of big raise when the big blind has more chips he will have to fold if the BB plays back at him.

The small blind however, should not raise allin but only call and push allin on the flop unless it contains a king or queen where he should check-call or bet the turn allin if button checks behind. He should check-fold if the flop comes ace high and check again on the turn and river if button checks along saving his 2200.

Conclusion - button played it fine only if the BB had a medium stack or bigger. Small blind played it wrong no matter how you look at it. Button was also wrong for calling the small blinds allin raise if he could afford folding and losing the 1200 invested which I take it he could since he didnt go allin preflop.

FatLoser

[jacksup]

Hey AceHigh,

I approached the question as if it were a ring game, in which case I think moving in is more profitable than folding or calling (for the reasons I gave).

In a tournament, the situation may well be different. If the button is very likely to call, I probably would just fold my small blind here, not wanting to get my chips in with only 54 percent equity (I believe I can find a better spot than that over the course of the tournament). If there is a reasonable chance the button will fold, or if this is a very fast tournament (as you suggested), then moving in is still my preferred play.

Best,
Matt

[Paul Talbot]

What's the chip stack of the Big Blind?

I'd say KQs made a good move because he'll be paying blinds 2 out of every 3 hands and can only make the round 4 more times. The chance of getting a better hand than KQs in the next 18 hands isn't great and he can't win much if he doesn't win sooner rather than later.

The A2 move is good if he has a decent stack size and eliminating a player has a good pay-off.

-Paul Talbot

[jack1234]

anyone interested in this post please refer to my 'The math of moving all in' above. i think the question is severly incomplete (intentionally, David?) and ive got some more purely math based nl ones there

for the record, as a nl player, and trying to imagine thinking in tournament real time, i'd almost certainly call, baring a maniac raiser and a passive bb. if theres no help on the flop at all its hard to think youre ahead, and i think giving the bb a chance to come in is worthwhile in case you make a 4 flush or hit k or q. The poor odds of him making a better hand when you hit justify the call, and a better hand is unlikely to pass anyway.

i think jacksup hand analysis is incorrect in that the weaker hands would have no wish to make it 1200 and trap themselves, they would prefer to raise the minimum. With A2, the reraise is not a call you like making, but is correct assuming a preflop desire to gamble for whatever reason (the raise virtually assures a reraise will be called)

So i think the reraise is not such a good move most of the time here, and that the initial raise is only justified by an assumed advantage in taking risks due to massive stack size(where losing does't hurt the raiser) or sense of inferiority compared to the other players. it would certainly be preferable to raise the minimum most of the time, and pass if solid players move all in.

I would also say that the reason im in the game at all is presumably because i think i play better than the majority of others, so commiting is unwise when keeping 2200 back will see out another couple of rounds if necessary.

fly me to vegas,
jack

[jack1234]

ps. the real answer is obviously that everyone posting in this link should reread (or buy) Tournament poker for advanced players. Am i wrong David?

[Al_Capone_Junior]

My impression is that in a tournament, it's too much money to risk for a measly $200 SB. Now admittedly I've been reading the thread, but it makes no difference, I'd still fold. If you win the pot, that's great, but it's too much to risk when you still have plenty of chips. I'd fold without hesitation, just like I always do in touchy tournament spots. It's a marginal edge, at best, and it's not worth pushing in a tourney.

The reason I'd fold is that if I reraise and get called, I'm probably way behind. Also, even a bare ace is ahead of KQs, at least by a little. I wouldn't just call either, because then I'm out of position. It's not that likely I'll flop a pair, and anything else, short of a str8, leaves me pretty be-screwed.

Now the button did not play it right either. When you make a steal raise like that, and get reraised all-in from the SB, they most likely have A2o beat. I think the button should have given up and folded.

al