A WPT hand

[jedi]

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I only participate with those that do not initiate the personal insults. I haven't added you as of yet but will if that is your desire.

Vince

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Wow, I guess I'm still cool enough to be in the club then.

[Vince Lepore]

3 Hands? What about J,J?

Vince

[lastchance]

Forgot overpairs, my bad. That was really dumb. Yes, I think overpairs are a lot more likely than sets.

Makes folding this situation a lot better.

In fact, if I was playing Chip Reese, I might laydown here. You have to know he'll do this with overpair, unless he usually reraises preflop...

Again, hella read dependent.

So, you've got overpair, flush draw (dunno how Chip plays, but I have to think he can do this), straight draw (highly unlikely now that I think about it), set (again, I don't see Chip calling with 33 or 44), top pair (dunno if he calls preflop with KT, QT, JT or T9 here), and overcards (he's gotta read me as weak to make this reraise, so he won't).

I'm either putting Chip Reese on a flush draw + overcards (card at least), TPGK or overpair. Have to admit, don't like the hands I'm up against.

But now, what does his little bet mean? Howard Lederer thought it meant that he was trying to get you to laydown by making a bet that invited a call.

I dunno. I haven't played Chip Reese. If I did, I probably would think about this a lot differently. I sure hope that people who have played against Chip Reese have.

Right now, I'd think long and hard, but make the laydown. I don't have 2 overcards and a flush draw beat, I don't know about QT, JT and T9 here, I think he's calling with only hands I lose to...

This hand is very, very interesting, a lot more interesting than Hansen/PP, which is just a math problem.

[Vince Lepore]

I didn't post this hand to get into an arguement. I found it interesting after I thought about it. I do not agree that a player who would call a preflop raise with KT would not also call with any pair. So I concider 3,3 and 44 as likely hands he might have. Much more likely than T,T [obviously]. Thinking about it - 3,3 and 4,4 might be more likely than any T. Fist Chip must have a T he would call with and then the probability that a T comes is the same as a 3, or 4 if chip has those hands. If Chip only calls withA,T then 3,3 or 44 are more likely. Add K,T and it swings to a T being more likely.

I believe that HL got caught up in the moment and did not think the hand through. That is not to say that he played badly, just, maybe, a little too quickly. That's not to say that I would not play the same way even taking a wider range of hands my opponent might have into account. I do think the best play in this situation is to fold but...what do I know.

Vince

[felson]

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Besides, I don't think he would like the flush draw and at best would call not check-raise a straight draw. If he has a straight flush draw he check-raises all in or better yet moves-in off the bat.

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Chip played the hand that way because he wanted to represent a flush draw or weaker ten to Howard, which is indeed how Howard read him. So either

1. Chip might indeed play those hands that way, or
2. Howard does not understand how Chip plays, and Chip knows this.

I think #1 is more plausible.

Even with a big draw, I like check-raising all-in better than betting all-in because it gets more money in the pot, while still having a great deal of fold equity.

Regarding your comment about Chip not liking the flush draw enough to check-raise it, we have already seen that Chip is willing to move his chips without a hand. For example, he pushed from the button (for > 10 big blinds) with 97s. So it's reasonable to believe that he would play a draw this aggressively, especially when three-handed and it's possible that Howard is betting without a pair.

[Vince Lepore]

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Chip played the hand that way because he wanted to represent a flush draw or weaker ten to Howard

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Do you believe that HL made the rght play given the information available? I'm certainly not arguing Chip's play. In fact I'm not arguing either's play. Just a discussion, that's all.


I do not agree that your two resaons are the only plausible reasons why this hand played the way it did.

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we have already seen that Chip is willing to move his chips without a hand.

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You are correct. But he "pushed", he didn't bet half of his stack. Besides I really am more interested in whether people think that given the payout structure that I propose for this hand if player A (HL) made the right play in moving in after player B's check raise.

Vince

[Moovyz]

I think you owe ClaytonN an apology. He nicely pointed out that this was a PSI hand not a WPT hand. You said it was a different hand. But then you clearly talked about it as the hand on PSI.

Be a man and apologize. Admit your small mistake, follwed by the larger, rude one. Until then, you are on my ignore list!

[Penetrater]

Man... you guys really dig the WPT...

[lastchance]

If Chip Reese makes this move with a flush draw and especially a weaker ten, there's no doubt Howard Lederer moves in right here.

I agree with the above poster. Chip Reese is only playing a set this way because he would play a weaker ten and a flush draw this way. Chip Reese isn't stupid, and he knows Howard Lederer isn't stupid either.

Howard Lederer moves in because he reads Chip Reese as weak. You don't make this move if you don't read Chip Reese as weak.

The weakness of the shortstack does not really affect the way this hand should be played. If Chip Reese moves in with hands Howard Lederer can beat, than HL moves Reese all-in, and Reese has to call. If Lederer puts Chip Reese on a set, which would be damn hard, obviously he has to fold.

Betting half your stack at this level is tantamount of pushing. It's a psychological play, and that's that.

[felson]

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Chip played the hand that way because he wanted to represent a flush draw or weaker ten to Howard

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Do you believe that HL made the rght play given the information available?

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I think so. Howard did consider that a third-place finish was unlikely for him given that he could lose and still outchip TJ. But I haven't done any math on this, so I'm not positive that HL played it well.

Mostly I just think that TPTK is a big hand three-handed, even when check-raised. Perhaps this is the wrong way to think about it.

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I do not agree that your two resaons are the only plausible reasons why this hand played the way it did.

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okay.

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we have already seen that Chip is willing to move his chips without a hand.

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You are correct. But he "pushed", he didn't bet half of his stack.

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But I think it is plausible that Chip would raise only half his stack with a flush draw in order to more credibly represent top pair. This is pretty much what Daniel N. did when his 75s flopped an open-ender.