30/60 Hand vs 2p2 terror

[Mig]

You don't defend KJo out of the BB vs a 30/20 UTG raisor ?

[Justin A]

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I think that session he'd been raising his normal range but also adding a lot of wierdo hands that were showndown. I may have fallen into his image trap and made a bad call, but i'm unsure. On the one hand he is a better player, but on the other he has a huge PFR and i only have to lose less than 0.5BB longrun. Whats the weakest K you defend against this player in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

You gotta remember that K9o sucks.

[Fianchetto]

I'd also vote for folding preflop... out of position against a solid player... I don't like K9 at all there.

[MAxx]

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You don't defend KJo out of the BB vs a 30/20 UTG raisor ?

[/ QUOTE ]

28/18 out of the SB-> NO Defense
30/20 out of the BB-> YES Defense

The thing I think about out of the SB: PFR's range from his relative position 1st. 2nd- in this situation do I really want to just call from the SB and give BB 5-1 odds.....usually not.

[ISF]

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On the one hand he is a better player, but on the other he has a huge PFR and i only have to lose less than 0.5BB longrun.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are in the sb so its .25bb. I think this call is a way bigger mistake then you realize. For arguments sake say it is EV neuteral to call this in the BB which I think is reasonable. Then it is at least a .25bb mistake to call it from the SB. .25BB mistakes are huge if you make ten of them every hundred hands that would turn a decent winner in to a break even player especially in that game where I doubt you can even make 2.5bb/100.

[Nigel]

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[ QUOTE ]
You don't defend KJo out of the BB vs a 30/20 UTG raisor ?

[/ QUOTE ]

28/18 out of the SB-> NO Defense
30/20 out of the BB-> YES Defense

The thing I think about out of the SB: PFR's range from his relative position 1st. 2nd- in this situation do I really want to just call from the SB and give BB 5-1 odds.....usually not.



[/ QUOTE ]

Maxx,

Can I ask your VPIP out of SB, for what level and what WR in SB over how many hands?

I defend SB more liberally than you and still have very low VPIP, so I would just like some comparison if you don't mind sharing.

Thanks,

Nigel

[Mig]

Well I'm not sure I'm that inclined to muck KJo out of the SB vs a 30/20 raiser who could raise 22 UTG or A8s. I know it's almost cold calling but vs a very loose opponents KJo still do good. I might muck KJo but I definitively call with KJs vs a loose player.

[Catt]

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I think that session he'd been raising his normal range but also adding a lot of wierdo hands that were showndown. I may have fallen into his image trap and made a bad call, but i'm unsure. On the one hand he is a better player, but on the other he has a huge PFR and i only have to lose less than 0.5BB longrun. Whats the weakest K you defend against this player in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

The preflop call sucks because of the circumstances regardless of the inherent strength of your hand. Whether or not K9o (or any other K-hand) is strong enough to see a flop, calling in the SB against a lone raiser is just plain bad in the vast, vast majority of circumstances.

I donked it up a bit in a 2+2 0.50/1 game a week or so ago and saw a lot of microers calling a single raiser in the SB. Here's what I posted in micros the next morning:

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I posted this in the 2+2 table thread last night but wanted to make sure others see it since I've now sobered up, I think it is important, and I saw it a lot last night.

There are times when you're in the SB, the action is to you, and you're facing a single raise. This could be an EP raise that is folded around to you, or it could be a possible steal-raise from LP. In any event, one player has raised and action is on you in the SB with BB yet to act.

It is virtually never a good play to call in this position. If your hand is strong enough to see the flop against the open-raiser, you should be three-betting here everytime. Your 3-bet faces the BB with calling two cool, likely to be getting 3:1 and facing the prospect of a cap from the open-raiser. Your 3 bet makes it very difficult for BB to see a flop, and when he does make a decision to come along, he's facing a scary hand range suggested by the 3-bet from the SB and stuck between an open raiser and SB 3-bettor. The opportunity to get the hand HU, with the momentum from pre-flop play, is worth the extra small bet that 3-betting costs pre-flop.

Compare 3-betting to calling the raise in the SB. You've now given the BB 5:1 odds to see the flop. BB is also closing the action so he has no fear of it getting raised behind him. He can call profitably with a very wide range of hands here looking for a favorable flop, and you now have two players who can hit instead of one. Furthermore, you will now be playing the flop and later streets against 2 players instead of HU, and both of those players have position on you throughout the hand. You also have no "intangible" advantages of momentum and the fear inspired by an SB 3-bet. It's pretty much the worst of all worlds.

If you were never the first player calling a raise in the SB, you'd be making very few if any mistakes. Take this play out of your game and learn to 3-bet or fold.

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I've never played 30/60 or even very close to that level, but unless compelling arguments are made as to why this sort of play makes sense at any given level, this seems like an almost no-brainer at whatever stakes once you look at the situation from BB's perspective.

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I'm not sure I'm that inclined to muck KJo out of the SB vs a 30/20 raiser who could raise 22 UTG or A8s. I know it's almost cold calling but vs a very loose opponents KJo still do good. I might muck KJo but I definitively call with KJs vs a loose player.

[/ QUOTE ]

In your example, please note a couple things:

1) If you were to formulate the range of hands that a good 30/20 player would raise with UTG... 22 and A8s would be on the lower side of his range, correct? I doubt he'd typically be raising 22, FWIW. So you maynot be in bad shape vs some of his dogs... but he isn't a dummy, the majority of his hands are at least somewhat better than yours from UTG. I doubt his pfr is near 20 UTG... as it is probably weighted much higher from the back to front.

2)I also find it interesting that your KJo is behind both of those hands, you have to put in 1.5 SBs OOP, and you will also be giveing BB 5 to 1 if you call.

[mistrpug]

I never call one raiser from the SB. It's fold or raise, and K9 isn't strong enough to raise.