call this?

joop · #1 06-30-2005, 01:08 AM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 4 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero checks.

Flop: (3.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, Button raises, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, Button raises, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (10.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Button raises, Hero...?

jgorham · #2 06-30-2005, 01:13 AM

This hand shows that you have some weak/tight tendencies. On the turn, what hands could you be getting raised with? Sure he could have a bigger flush, but more likely he has a big pair, 2 pair, a set, a pair and a draw etc. You really need to 3bet the turn, and it isn't close.

Also folding the river would be pretty silly, as the board never paired.

pokerjunky · #3 06-30-2005, 01:14 AM

Man that's a tough one. I don't think you're good often enough to call two cold but it's also somewhat dependant on what your read on button is. If he's overly aggressive I'd call.

private joker · #4 06-30-2005, 01:48 AM

I don't like the flop bet.

Jake (The Snake) · #5 06-30-2005, 02:09 AM

Why not? Not saying I defenitely disagree I just want to know your reasoning.

private joker · #6 06-30-2005, 12:50 PM

Generally the higher your flush draw the more inclined you should be to bet it. With a nut or K-high flush draw, you can also win when you pair your overcard. Here, you have virtually the nut low unless you make a flush, and 2 opponents is exactly the number I don't want to bet against. If they're going to fold the flop, then they might check it through, and catch a pair when we catch a diamond -- remember, they have 6 outs to pair up and we have 9 to hit a flush.

I also wouldn't like to get raised because our flush is coming in 35% of the time and a raise could get this heads-up where we have to put in 50% of the money. It's not as much a value bet as everyone thinks it is.

I wish I could find the old post in here from someone smarter than me who pointed out why it's often correct to just check small flush draws in first position on the flop.

Azhrarn · #7 06-30-2005, 01:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Generally the higher your flush draw the more inclined you should be to bet it. With a nut or K-high flush draw, you can also win when you pair your overcard. Here, you have virtually the nut low unless you make a flush, and 2 opponents is exactly the number I don't want to bet against.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this principle, but isn't this situation different, since hero has bottom pair? So he has a better chance of having the best hand now, and he has some extra non-flush outs to improve if he's currently behind. I like the flop bet here.

private joker · #8 06-30-2005, 01:41 PM

<blockquote>Svar på:<hr />

I agree with this principle, but isn't this situation different, since hero has bottom pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy crap. I TOTALLY MISSED that he has bottom pair. I thought he had the virtual nut low. Yes, this definitely changes everything knowing he has a pair -- possibly the best hand. Forget everything I said about not betting the flop; it's a standard value bet.

mantasm · #9 06-30-2005, 03:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the flop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do. They'll both fold a good amount of the time, maybe even more than 1/4.5. You get a little value when they both call and you'll frequently improve to a winning hand. I can't see what's not to like.

This should have been a turn 3 bet.

Padawan Learner · #10 06-30-2005, 12:58 PM

private joker:

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the flop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

With only 3 players in, I think you take this down with a flop bet fairly often. If there were 5 or 6 in the field, then I think a check to see who bets from where is a good idea.