QQ while i tilt

tiltaholic · #1 07-20-2005, 09:53 AM

i think i butchered this. i was in the money seat at this table but i couldn't win any money. poor me.

reads:
SB is donktacular. he's 94/40. he has 2 cards. he always bets or calls the flop, but reliably check/folds the turn when he doesn't connect with the flop+turn.

UTG is a little loose pf, but only raises about 2% of his hands. he plays passively.

MP1 is a solid aggressive TAG who is paying attention.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 2 folds, MP1 3-bets, MP2 calls, 3 folds, SB caps, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (20 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, SB calls.

Turn: (14 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, Hero ??

could i please have a plan...

#2 07-20-2005, 10:03 AM

Given that he gives up on the turn when he doesn't have a hand, I think calling down is your best course of action. The only questionable parts of that strategy are MP1, MP2, and the fact that you don't hold the Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Even then, I like calling down better than raising or folding here.

Henke · #3 07-20-2005, 10:05 AM

Tough one. My guess is MP1 might have a high [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], you're probably behind UTG, and SB can have lots of hands you beat but also lots of hands that you're practically drawing dead to. But given that the pot is huge, UTG passive and SB can have a 6, I would call here, and be prepared to call down on a non [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] river.

topspin · #4 07-20-2005, 10:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
SB ... always bets or calls the flop, but reliably check/folds the turn when he doesn't connect with the flop+turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does he still check-fold the turn if there's no aggression back at him on the flop?

Because given your relative position and this horrible flop, I'd really like to just call the flop and raise a friendly turn card. There are lots of bad cards that could come, and you can't really protect your hand in this huge pot. I know it's overused but I think this is a legit application of "waiting until the turn".

If you had Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] it's a different story.

EDIT: As played, I think you still have to raise. Just because you think he has a piece of the flop doesn't mean he has a 5 ... he could easily have top pair/overpair and wanted to stop-and-go a non-[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Either remaining player could easily have non-heart overpairs that you really want to go away, or they could have a worse hand with a single [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] that you can charge. I think you would have heard from a flopped flush or AA/KK more already.

tiltaholic · #5 07-20-2005, 10:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SB ... always bets or calls the flop, but reliably check/folds the turn when he doesn't connect with the flop+turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does he still check-fold the turn if there's no aggression back at him on the flop?

Because given your relative position and this horrible flop, I'd really like to just call the flop and raise a friendly turn card. There are lots of bad cards that could come, and you can't really protect your hand in this huge pot. I know it's overused but I think this is a legit application of "waiting until the turn".

If you had Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] it's a different story.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmm. good question. no, i would say he would not check-fold the turn if noone played back at him on the flop.

perhaps i should have stopped the action on the flop.

TripleH68 · #6 07-20-2005, 10:33 AM

Oye yoye yoye.

UTG's smooth call on the flop smells like high [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or an overpair?

Gotta think MP1 is raising this flop with the A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
We know his hand started out as 3-betting a loose UTG player, but with 2% pfr. AK/Q with K/Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or a pp.

SB is, well, ugghhh.

It sucks that you do not have the Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] but the pot is big and I like trying to push UTG or MP1 off a higher pp with no [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Calling just feels wrong here.

Raise this turn especially since the 5 gives you a couple more outs against a made flush.
Sure it would suck to get 3-bet by SB...but he is a donk right?

Interested in this hand. Good post.

Aaron W. · #7 07-20-2005, 12:05 PM

I think a player as aggressive as his stats and your read seem to indicate would stop and go on this flop with just a high heart or maybe even something like a medium pocket pair. I'm trying to figure out what 3-betting TAG has. He might also have an overpair with no hearts and is waiting for the turn to come safely for him. He could have been trying to isolate UTG with something weaker, but he can't call the flop raise without a reasonable draw (high heart) or a strong-yet-vulnerable hand.

I think you can just call this bet. I'm a little worried about TAG raising with a weak hand, thinking that it's probably good given your call (99 overpair waiting for the turn to raise, for example). But I also think he doesn't want to get 3-bet holding those hands and that should be enough to keep him in line, especially with you in the middle protecting the pot.

Just calling on the river also makes sense.

adsman · #8 07-20-2005, 12:07 PM

Lovely co-ordinated board on the flop. Apart from the flush there could be a made str8 sitting out there. There are a lot of cards on the turn that you don't want to see. Saying that, the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] isn't one of them. I like calling the flop and raising the safe card on the turn. If SB reraises you, call him down. He could have anything. If UTG reraises you then you have a fold as you have to respect a reraise on the turn from a passive player. If your TAG reraises you then you have another tricky decision to make.
Nice post, excellent reads.

@bsolute_luck · #9 07-20-2005, 01:26 PM

i think i agree with topspin to wait until the turn. the pot is too big on the flop (heck, it still might be too big on the turn) to protect, so that's when i'd give my shot then.

give them ~7:1 on the double bet turn, instead of ~11.5-1 on the flop and ~16:1 on the turn. any non-pair overcard w/o a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] can no longer properly call and you get to look for a safe card.

i think at this point in the hand, raising again, though again cutting down on odds, i think is spewing with both UTG and MP cold calling on the flop.

detruncate · #10 07-20-2005, 06:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i think i agree with topspin to wait until the turn. the pot is too big on the flop (heck, it still might be too big on the turn) to protect, so that's when i'd give my shot then.

give them ~7:1 on the double bet turn, instead of ~11.5-1 on the flop and ~16:1 on the turn. any non-pair overcard w/o a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] can no longer properly call and you get to look for a safe card.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this bit.

[ QUOTE ]
i think at this point in the hand, raising again, though again cutting down on odds, i think is spewing with both UTG and MP cold calling on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not this though. Do we call 2-more with an overpair and a possible 3-bet to come? Maybe... but it would be a tough decision, no?

It's possible there are overcards out. The call might be a bit loose, but I can easily see it being made.

The tight/passive might be on a heart, as he probably wouldn't have pumped the flop... but the other cat almost certainly isn't unless it's the Q or worse and might well be able to find a fold with a hand we'd like to knock out.

Big pot. I'm prepared to spew a bit.