Big pot with weak two pair

CourtesyFlush · #1 06-22-2005, 04:10 PM

This is a hand I think I misplayed terribly...I know calling the final raise was terrible but how should I have played the flop and the initial bet on the turn? To give some background, this guy was fairly tight, and I had been raising preflop/taking it down on the flop more than my fair share. I'm sure this guy noticed so I figured he was check-raising pretty light here...probably with a king. I called it hoping to improve on the turn or be done with the hand...bad play?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

BB ($94.21)
UTG ($167.27)
Hero ($80.95)
Button ($234.65)
SB ($129.28)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.5.
1 fold, Hero raises to $4, 1 fold, SB (poster) calls $3.50, 1 fold.

Flop: ($9) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $6, SB raises to $12, Hero calls $6.

Turn: ($33) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $5, Hero raises to $20, SB raises to $80, Hero calls $44.95 (All-In).

River: ($177.95) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $177.95

amoeba · #2 06-22-2005, 04:16 PM

I fold to the minraise as another Q does not make me feel that much better about my hand especially if villain is tight.

CourtesyFlush · #3 06-22-2005, 09:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I fold to the minraise as another Q does not make me feel that much better about my hand especially if villain is tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats what I was thinking, would you call the flop raise if the outs appeared to be more clean, or just be done with it?

After calling the flop how do you deal with the underbet on the turn?

Snag · #4 06-22-2005, 09:15 PM

1.) Don't raise preflop w/ QJ.
2.) Don't call a minraise with second pair in a raised pot.
3.) Don't call a 4x reraise after you 4x raise someone with middle two pair on a coordinated board where someone could have T9h, AT, KQ, KJ, 22, KK, or less likely QQ, or JJ.

You should have know you were crushed here on the turn when he came back over the top.

Fold's good.

CourtesyFlush · #5 06-22-2005, 09:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1.) Don't raise preflop w/ QJ.

[/ QUOTE ]
Call or fold?

Thanks for the response, I knew I butchered this hand and the final call was horrible (tilt) but I wanted to check on the rest of the hand.

edge · #6 06-22-2005, 09:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1.) Don't raise preflop w/ QJ.

[/ QUOTE ]
Call or fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise. Calling is ok too I guess, depending on how loose Button and the blinds are.

Snag · #7 06-22-2005, 09:36 PM

Advocating raising w/ QJ in any position is a recipe for disaster in this ring game unless you are A VERY SOLID preflop player, which I think you could use some work on. If you the table has been limping a lot, calling here isn't terrible, but you don't want to call a raise with it unless there are multiple people in the pot. QJ is an extremely weak holding heads up or three way - QJs is a little bit more valuable, but you have to be very careful with how you play it.

CourtesyFlush · #8 06-22-2005, 09:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Advocating raising w/ QJ in any position is a recipe for disaster in this ring game unless you are A VERY SOLID preflop player, which I think you could use some work on. If you the table has been limping a lot, calling here isn't terrible, but you don't want to call a raise with it unless there are multiple people in the pot. QJ is an extremely weak holding heads up or three way - QJs is a little bit more valuable, but you have to be very careful with how you play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's concentrate on this specific situation, being the second to act in a 5 handed game after utg folds. Obviously you can't call a raise or play QJ multiway, but I think folding in this spot is pretty weak. A limp wouldnt be bad, but I hate limping in with the intention of folding to an LP raise because they could be attacking my limp with nothing. I know I do it all the time.

jhall23 · #9 06-22-2005, 09:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Advocating raising w/ QJ in any position is a recipe for disaster in this ring game unless you are A VERY SOLID preflop player, which I think you could use some work on. If you the table has been limping a lot, calling here isn't terrible, but you don't want to call a raise with it unless there are multiple people in the pot. QJ is an extremely weak holding heads up or three way - QJs is a little bit more valuable, but you have to be very careful with how you play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero is in the CO of a 6max game (actually 5 handed). Raising here PF is fine.

Snag · #10 06-22-2005, 09:52 PM

Understandable concerns here.

However - look what happenned. Like I said - you need to work on your post flop play if you're going to try and get tricky w/ hands like QJ. He clearly had you beat on the flop and the turn (and if he didn't - well, he really needs to work on his post flop play too). Raising w/ QJ is asking for trouble. Clowns at these levels will call your raise with KJ,AJ,AQ, not to mention JJ and AK - all of these you're a huge dog to. Many of these players will not fold top pair to aggression either, so you really need to be careful if you're going to start raising with subpar mediocre hands.

If you're going to do anything here w/ this hand I recommend a limp/fold or a limp/call if there's a raise ahead of you. Don't worry about one BB - smack the fools upside the head with power holding.

I stand by this motto: I'll lay down now even tho I know I have you beat, because, well... I can play 200 hands an hour, and I know there'll be another situation where I've got you by the balls, and you'll make this move, and I'll be a richer man.