A Difficult Hand to Play - Please Help

Pedigree · #1 11-23-2005, 11:29 AM

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, CO raises, 2 folds, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

No read on the CO, MP1 is loose passive. I assume this is pretty much standard. Anybody fold here for the first bet?

Flop: (8.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls, CO raises, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

No read on the BB, it was impossible to tell where I was at. I did know that against three players I almost definitely had a pot equity edge. I would've raised it myself but I thought the preflop raiser may raise again (especially since he was short stacked). If he raised the other two would've called for one more and I'd be making money (assuming I did have an equity edge).

On the other hand, maybe I should've raised and had him reraise to get it heads up and potentially buy some outs.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, CO raises, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Now I kinda did actually want to get it heads up. I really can't say why I wanted it heads up here as opposed to on the flop, I just instinctively did. That's not a good reason, I know. But I bet and CO (short stacked, still could have anything) raised. When it got back to me I figured calling was a no brainer (folding sucks and raising is spewing). I hoped to improve.

River: (16.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets, Hero folds, CO raises to 1.75 BB (all in), BB folds, MP1 calls.

This play I'm very confident was right. With MP1 calling and calling and calling there was a really good chance he had an Ace. In addition, CO was so short he woulda raised with anything here for the hell of it. Because the pot was huge, if it was just me and MP1 heads up I would've considered calling one bet. But I knew I would've had to call 1.75 BB and there was no way in hell I had a 1.75/18 shot of beating both MP1 and CO.

Final Pot: 18 BB

Please help, how badly did I screw this hand up. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

@bsolute_luck · #2 11-23-2005, 11:36 AM

Preflop: i would have raised or folded. you want to try and get this HU with the LP as much as possible.

Flop: I would raised the initial flop bet from BB. he could be donking with a flush draw, straight draw, or worse King. even if you're behind, you have the OESD and BDFD which would be good.

Turn: i wouldn't have donked the turn. CO has shown plenty of strength and the pot is too big to try this move with a hand that is likely behind.

River: i would have played the same.

TripleH68 · #3 11-23-2005, 11:40 AM

This is a good opportunity to raise it up preflop. Limper is loose passive you say.

I don't like the turn. The brick obviously did not help your hand and you are likely dominated by the CO. Tell me what hand CO has that you feel good against?

ninjaunderwear · #4 11-23-2005, 11:42 AM

Fold this one pre-flop, but if you're going to play, need to throw in a raise.

Raise the bet on the flop to clean up some outs and try to get this heads up against a flush draw or a lower kicker.

HouseCalls · #5 11-23-2005, 11:48 AM

Preflop - I'd call here
Flop - I think you have to raise here because you have more than just a draw. You have good high card strength; in fact you may be ahead with top pair. In a large pot like this winning it right away or driving players out is all good.
Turn and River - because you did not raise the flop, just about everyone is now pot committed and without making one of your draws you are in a world of hurt - especially when the J hits on the river - good laydown [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

jaxUp · #6 11-23-2005, 12:21 PM

preflop: raise to get button/isolate LP

flop: raise flop with solid equity here

turn: a turn donk is ok if you can fold to a raise from CO. But with an OESD you can't, so you should have c/c'ed.

river: good laydown. No hand you beat here.

#7 11-23-2005, 12:38 PM

:grunch: Whether or not to raise the flop after BB bet is up for debate, but I definitely would have reraised after CO raised.

The turn looks good. I think raising would be spewing.

I think you have to lay it down on the river. You have the LP read on MP1 and he's leading on the river is pretty obvious.

Pedigree · #8 11-23-2005, 12:48 PM

I put CO on an extremely wide range of hands (he could have a worse king or a flush draw) because he is short stacked. In my experience, people do some pretty wacky things short stacked (just bet and raise and try desperately to win the pot no matter what).

Pedigree · #9 11-23-2005, 12:49 PM

I now think donking the turn was a very bad idea. With a pot this big and two loose passives to my right there's no way I'm going to be able to fold anybody. I should've check-called the turn ... that was my biggest mistake. I probably also should've raised the flop but I'm not as concerned about that play.

Any more comments would be greatly appreciated!

bozlax · #10 11-23-2005, 02:07 PM

Preflop: raise or fold, leaning toward fold. If it's folded to me in MP2 or later, or 1 limper and I'm in CO or later, I'll raise, otherwise muck. (Especially with a short-stack acting behind you...you can be aggro with them when you've got a strong hand, but have to be careful with marginal hands because they won't go away.)

Flop: The way you played it you have to raise. You have an equity edge against 2 opponents, not 3, and you'd like to clean up some outs. If you had raised PF, it would probably have been checked to you and you should bet, planning to check-fold the turn if anybody raises besides the short-stack.

Turn: The way you played it, this is a check...your FE is zero, the short-stack is still in, and your line is "get cheaply to showdown." Again, with the more aggro preflop line, you might be shorter-handed at this point, with better FE so a bet would be g00t.

River: fine, regardless of your preflop line. In fact, you should be given high praise for having the discipline to fold this, here...I'm not sure a lot of players (myself included) would be able to fold this for one bet, but you're good here approximately never.