Things Have Changed - Page 4

Subfallen · #31 09-20-2005, 12:52 PM

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Also, if your range of c/r, lead hands is consistently this wide (i.e. everything down to an underpair to middle pair), you will be spewing 2BB a huge amount of the time in a game where opponents regularly wait for the turn (i.e. every limit above 5/10.)

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Doesn't the line you suggest (bet/call/bet) also cost 2BB??

EDIT: Nobody with a single pair hand can afford to wait for the turn here. Button would have raised a pair, and UTG will 3-bet a pair if CR'ed.

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You are far more experienced than me and I defer to your abilities, but I don't understand why you don't expect anyone to wait to the turn. Can you elaborate on this point?

As for the line I would actually take, 90% of the time here it would be: (1) check/call flop and fold to a turn bet unless we hit a 4, 6, or 8; (2) lead the flop planning to put in no more than 1 more BB without improving.

Not saying I would never c/r the flop---for example, if I am running over the table, if UTG is a maniac who is likely to 3-bet with a worse hand, etc...

Edited to add - ALL1N, I think you also play much higher than 5/10...you may be underestimating the amount of information that the average weak-passive 5/10'er will leak on the turn here...i.e. most 5/10'ers will not continue betting without at least like 99 on this board.

Vaftrudner · #32 09-20-2005, 12:57 PM

Nobody with a single pair hand can afford to wait for the turn here.

I know plenty of guys, AND I also know some that take that cr on the flop seriously and just calls down... /v

#33 09-20-2005, 01:14 PM

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No idea who either of these guys are. Standard unknown 5/10 clowns.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises</font>, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Button calls, Hero calls.

On top of that I was calling down anyhow. Standard? I rarely donk the river.

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The Button called 2 bets preflop and a bet on the flop on a drawless board and then bet when it was checked to him on the turn. Even a donk has a hand he'll see showdown with given that sequence.

At the river, you lose to anything he caught on the flop. I just don't see him staying in the way he did if he didn't catch a piece of the flop and I don't see him folding to 1 bet on the river.

ALL1N · #34 09-20-2005, 01:55 PM

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Edited to add - ALL1N, I think you also play much higher than 5/10...you may be underestimating the amount of information that the average weak-passive 5/10'er will leak on the turn here...i.e. most 5/10'ers will not continue betting without at least like 99 on this board.

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This may be the problem. At higher stakes, nearly everyone knows to raise to protect their pairs on this flop. I have assumed the same for this game: that, being it a 3-way flop, the button would raise the pfraiser with a pair 7's or better, and the pfraiser would 3-bet with Q's or better. I may be wrong in assuming the same at 5/10.

When the opponents do what you want them to here, the CR line is extremely efficient.

fyodor · #35 09-20-2005, 07:29 PM

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The Button called 2 bets preflop and a bet on the flop on a drawless board and then bet when it was checked to him on the turn. Even a donk has a hand he'll see showdown with given that sequence.

At the river, you lose to anything he caught on the flop. I just don't see him staying in the way he did if he didn't catch a piece of the flop and I don't see him folding to 1 bet on the river.

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Not that it's important but in this particular hand he did fold to my river donk bet.

My thinking on the flop was that there was an excellent chance it missed both of them, but either leading out or cr was unlikely to fold either one of them. Check raising I thought at the time was the least attractive as it would just build the pot and make them very unlikely to fold any draw.

When the turn changed nothing I briefly considered check raising there. The original raiser now checked and the other unknown bet so this should have given me even more reason to cr. Instead I came up with some lame idea that I should just see a cheap showdown.

With just one opponent at the river and a decent scare card coming (given my play) it looked like a great opportunity for the donk bet. I doubted I would get raised and would fold instantly if I was. If I was ahead he was unlikely to bet behind me. I was calling anyhow.

Consensus is I played a bit like a fool but got lucky. Good for the table image if nothing else.

Thanks for all the responses. This is why I post hands.

oreogod · #36 09-20-2005, 09:39 PM

So I took a look at this hand today, not drunk. Talked w/ a few ppl about it.

I would rather lead or c/c and lead the turn (Id take that line HU for sure - HU the flop is very close between, c/c or c/r or lead), than CR the flop. As it is, Buttons CC preflop is iffy...but Id rather lead the flop have UTG raise and possibly wedge button out than c/c here. I think leading the turn is a better play than CRing the turn.

It depends on your opponents...but by CRing the flop u keep them both in and if they call u are pretty much going to be leading the turn. It costs the same, but u dont have the possibility of knocking them out (one maybe). I really think CRing two opponents w/ your modest holding is a bit much here.

Information? We have a four handed game...u bet the flop, UTG raises...Button CCs again. I think thats more info than CR both on the flop and lead the turn. I dont know, but at 5/10 u are not getting 3bet often w/ overs (and w/ buttons call already, I dont think u are getting 3bet much at all) and thats what they are going to have a majority of the time.

Dont know, its an intresting hand and I believe its close between most desicions. I probably would have lead the flop, I dont think overcalling is to hot here.

But a majority of the time the C/R flop line is going to cost u the same and u build a pot at the same time, and I think u are getting called down by one going that route then the bet/call, bet line.

This was thrown together pretty quick so there might be some leaks.

ALL1N · #37 09-20-2005, 10:45 PM

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It depends on your opponents...but by CRing the flop u keep them both in and if they call u are pretty much going to be leading the turn. It costs the same, but u dont have the possibility of knocking them out (one maybe).

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Surely the greater sign of strength of the flop CR + turn bet is going to have a greater chance of knocking people out than check-call-donk.

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Information? We have a four handed game...u bet the flop, UTG raises...Button CCs again. I think thats more info than CR both on the flop and lead the turn.

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What information?? You could still easily be ahead here.

adamstewart · #38 09-20-2005, 11:03 PM

NOTE: I haven't read any of the other responses (yet).

I like your initial check on the flop, because it gives Hero the chance to see what UTG (preflop aggressor) does, and also allows us to see how Button (preflop cold-caller) reacts.

Further, there's a decent chance Hero is behind on this flop, so I don't really like betting out (we're just asking to get raised by UTG pretty much regardless of what he has).

The way the flop played out, with Button overcalling on this ragged relatively drawless board, I feel a fold on this flop is the correct play. (After all, the pot isn't exactly large anyway).

(Now, if button had of folded the flop, a case could be made for call the flop.)

Adam

oreogod · #39 09-21-2005, 01:01 AM

I advocated bet/call then lead turn. While I think your line is better suited HU, I think u are getting called down by one of these guys here if u CR the flop. Also if u CR and get two calls u are pretty much commited to betting any turn.

ALL1N · #40 09-21-2005, 01:11 AM

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I advocated bet/call then lead turn. While I think your line is better suited HU, I think u are getting called down by one of these guys here if u CR the flop. Also if u CR and get two calls u are pretty much commited to betting any turn.

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Called down is great... more value.

Also, what's wrong with being committed to betting the turn. Once I CR and get two calls, I'm probably ahead, so of course I'm happy to be betting the turn. We're not bluffing here you know [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]